So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

It's not really workable is it? Vaccination or exclusion.

Less people working = the economy suffers we know this.

Something like 64% of HCP have said yes to getting it. The NHS would implode, just like it would if Flu vaccine was enforced on them.

It would exclude those who cannot have any live vaccine including pregnancy. It would exclude the under 18's - you think Gullivers or Thomas World would survive?

Would be awesome for Reading, Glastonbury etc not having the kids running around

You really suggesting that children can go to two places indefinitely - home and school?

The Booster question cannot be answered for another 4/5 months.

Hopefully staff over seeing this for care homes don't have the belief vaccinate or else and their wishes are respected.

Those saying tough it should be mandatory how do you suggest the vaccine is given?

Vaccine enforcement officers going to people's homes and force them?
Reduce benefits? - and if you don't claim?
Loose their job? - not everyone works for someone else

And then what carry a card if you haven't got a phone? Within hours of this if not before, the black market would be rife with counterfeits.

CanI digital IDs I suspect and no opting out. Financial sector would love that, they’ve been driving for a cashless society and hourglass money (runs out if not used), would tie in nicely.

And no that’s not conspiracy either it’s the FT, and well known.

Those saying tough it should be mandatory how do you suggest the vaccine is given?

Possibly up the bum. Who knows? Fucking silly question. Arm or thigh one would imagine. As per.

Oh good grief @SmileyClare I’m ‘banging on’ because some people seem to think that vaccination is the only way to gain immunity and therefore think the entire population, including people immune from natural infection, should be forced/coerced into vaccination.

I’m also not sure why you (and some others) struggle to understand that, seeing as the vaccine is not 100% effective, having it does not mean that you are immune. So, irt having restrictions to protect others, proof of vaccination will mean very little.

This is nothing to do with a free for all ‘survival of the fittest’ scenario. The point of lockdown etc was to reduce pressure on the nhs. Vaccinating a proportion of the population will achieve that and if makes sense for the more vulnerable to be first in line because they are the ones most likely to be hospitalised.
I’m really not sure why you are struggling to understand any of that and instead have to try to twist it as some ‘anti-vaxx’ conspiracy theory.

@SmileyClare
So agree with your long post.
Can I add hearing loss to the list as well.
Not mentioned as far as possible repurcussions of covid but true.

The point is the vaccine isn't 100% effective. That's my point too. It's far more effective for a herd immunity to therefore have mass vaccinations, rather than sections of the population.

It would exclude those who cannot have any live vaccine including pregnancy. It would exclude the under 18's - you think Gullivers or Thomas World would survive?

Gullivers or Thomas World surviving may be of secondary importance to some countries.

Maybe (at a guess) for international travel there will ultimately be, for some countries at least, some form of protocol involving either vacination or testing prior to in bound travel and/or on entry.

IMHO the right for unfettered entry to a country doesn't trump any country's right to try and avoid the virus being imported and causing problems for it's own inhabitants and health care system.

Gullivers or Thomas World surviving may be of secondary importance.

I imagine there are plenty more proven side effects of covid infection Rousette I didn't want to use a whole page listing them!

Bumblemummy I can't quite comprehend your logic in saying "the virus is unlikely to affect me badly, I'm not at risk of complications" but deciding a vaccine (exposing yourself to a controlled tested miniscule amount of that same virus attached to a protein) is far too risky.

OP yes I agree there needs to be trust in the state, you're right.

I would think the huge section of the population of care homes suffering from dementia will have their vaccine choice removed. Whether a HCP will make the decision I don't know.

I would think the huge section of the population of care homes suffering from dementia will have their vaccine choice removed

If theyre not capable of making the choice someone will do it on their behalf. You don't tend to get antivaxers in the cohort that remembers polio though.

Of course the other thing is, we may be a lot closer to natural herd immunity than we thought. We have no idea how many people have had it and are asymptomatic. We don't know how much cross immunity exists from similar coronavirus. Some studies are now also suggesting immunity from covid is very long lasting. It may be that the vaccine is really only necessary for the vulnerable in the long run. Like flu.

@SmileyClare I haven’t said anywhere that I think the vaccine is ‘far too risky’.

@bumbleymummy

“ they will be the new underclass who we need to 'protect' society from”

And there it is. The very type of ‘othering’ that people against the idea of compulsory/coerced vaccination are talking about.

@MoggyP can you explain why people would need to be protected from someone who is immune through having been infected?

Repeating this, and I'm not @MoggyP, but...there are now several cases of KNOWN reinfection worldwide. Apparenty, immunity can last from a very few weeks to a few months, then a certain percentage of people will reinfect. Dunno yet if one can reinfect more than once. And I say "known" because there could be any number of people who were asymptomatic with their first bout, never knew that they had it, and then developed symptoms with the second bout, thinking it was the first.

@teateateateateamoretea uptake for the flu vaccine in over 75s is around 80%. So I guess 20% of over 75s are ‘anti-vaxxers’ if, by your definition, anyone who decides not to take a vaccine is ‘anti-vaxx’

ptake for the flu vaccine in over 75s is around 80%. So I guess 20% of over 75s are ‘anti-vaxxers’ if, by your definition, anyone who decides not to take a vaccine is ‘anti-vaxx’ hmm

I would imagine lots of the other 20% are contraindicated, or have trouble physically accessing it for various reason. Nothing to do with being an antivaxer.
Again, those that remember polio and measles tend to love vaccines. You know, like a normal person.

Mamyn the key word there was immune. Yes, there have been a few very rare cases of reinfection but recent studies have shown that immunity from infection 6 months + . Seeing as we don’t know how long vaccine induced immunity lasts and the vaccine isn’t 100% effective then it doesn’t make sense to assume that someone is only immune because they’ve been vaccinated and not accept that people can be immune from infection.

@teateateateateamoretea oh good, so you can accept that people who refuse certain vaccination aren’t necessarily anti-vaxx. Progress!

oh good, so you can accept that people who refuse certain vaccination aren’t necessarily anti-vaxx. Progress!

No, thats not at all what I said. Read it again. There was nothing at all about refusing any vaccination.

Yes, there have been a few very rare cases of reinfection but recent studies have SUGGESTED that immunity from infection MAY last 6 months +

Fixed that for you.

@SmileyClare I would expect like all mums medical care we will be encouraged to give permission but not forced. We will consent if offered because it's the right thing to do, may open up access to homes (which families are clamouring for) and because I know if mum could give consent she would.

Lots of people in care with dementia have other people usually family nominated to make those decisions for them.

"they’ve been driving for a cashless society " Yes this is true and a good thing too. but I only see people worrying about this on youtube.

Typically the same people who say "oh I approve of vaccines BUT..."

and "Why should I be bombarded with 5G.. You do know it's radiation right? and you know banned it.. "

btw washing is compulsory too. Try getting a job in a office if you stink.
Wearing clothes is compulsory. Supermarkets will force customers to leave if in underwear without considering their bodily autonomy.

Life is full of situations where you can't just do as you please.

@Gigheimer

* I personally think the OTT reactions don't help. People are entitled to a sensible discussion of the pros and cons of this new vaccine, not people hysterically screaming at others and calling them anti-vaxxers.*

^^ this, it’s like everything else in life now. Want to discuss trans issues? You’re a terf. Want to debate BLM? You’re a racist.

This totally binary adulation of the mainstream seriously concerns me. Mainly because it is driving people who want to discuss, or get attacked in the opposite direction. It is silencing people and driving them to quiet, underground rage and then they find the seedy fuckers there who will give them more and more extreme opinions.

We carry on and it’s going to be fascism or jackboots and that terrifies the shit out of me.

Pot. Kettle.

If there's any hysteria or polarisation on this thread then you're the chief ringleader! And really... what has BLM got to do with any of this? People don't want to be killed... that honestly sounds like a pretty simple to understand, basic human right, what is there to 'debate'?

Personally, I don't care if you take the vaccine or not. I also don't care if you get stuck in a lockdown as a consequence of YOUR choice. And why is a label so important to you? Grow up. If you refuse a national vaccine then it follows that you are an anti-vaxxer. That is not an insult it is a tautology.

And on that note I didn't bring up anti vaxxer, I just pointed out that 'the cap fits'.

I'll spread what I damn well like. I talked to the man and heard his tone, you did not

No one's stopping you. But equally I'm going to point out that extrapolating from your experience that 'many people in the NHS view old people as expendable' is hyperbolic and I'm going to damn well challenge it.

And one unhelpful thing being said does not justify saying another.