So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

Another exemption because of the live vaccine is pregnancy.

I agree with you, OP. Coercing anyone into taking a vaccine (particularly if the illness poses negligible risk to them) is a very slippery slope. If the public supports the vaccine they will have it by choice anyway, as with all the major jabs.

There will undoubtedly be countries who restrict access to those who haven't been vaccinated.
If they have just about wiped it out through a vaccination programme, whilst protecting those who cannot have it for health reasons, why on earth should they accept anyone into their country who chooses not to have a vaccination? They'd be bonkers to do that.

Also... for all those saying... it seems rushed. Someone linked this yesterday, and it is worth reading. Most of the work was done prior to covid, it just needed the final scientific research and a lot of money thrown at it, whilst stalling all other research so they had the staff

Just saying it seems rushed is such a daft thing to so unless you are a scientist or epidemioligist. Just having a feeling is not a reason to not have the vaccine.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55041371

Are you aware that in vaccine trials the detection of antibodies was present in all (non placebo) candidates? Antibodies which provide immunity to covid. Hospital deaths and admissions amongst those in the trial were never going to be used as a measure of success in a trial. Sorry that's nonsense.

I'm staggered that posters would rather catch the virus than have a vaccine.
Known side effects of covid:
Forced isolation,
Highly infectious to others
Fever
Delirium, hallucination
Aches
Breathlessness
Persistent cough
Sore throat
Lung damage
Severe inflammation of tissues
Heart arrhythmia
Organ damage
Organ failure
Brain damage
Post viral illness
Death

Known side effects of the licensed vaccine
Mild headache

What are those wanting to wait a year or more before a vaccine seeing as the solution? Further tight restrictions to prevent transmission? Yet when restrictions for those unvaccinated is suggested there's an outcry of you can't take my civil liberities this is scary government control!! Er no, it's sensible measures to allow everyone to return to some normality without risking dangerous outbreaks. It allows choice in refusing a vaccine.

Bumblemummy just bangs on about natural immunity after infection. Maybe that's what she wants, the virus to spread through the population in an horrific survival of the fittest scenario. As it stands, a tiny section of the population have had CV and are immune. Not enough to make even the smallest dent in natural herd immunity.

I'll repeat what others have stated numerous times; your choice to refuse a vaccine, your choice to face some restrictions in the future.

If people want to avoid a vaccine then fine. It will never be forced. Of course you'll be able to work and live a life. Don't dress your decision up as a protest to having your civil liberties taken away or excuse yourself "because other people can have it just not me".

Own the fact that you have the luxury of hiding at the back of the queue for a jab, whilst enjoying the relaxation of lockdown a vaccination program will bring, because you are in such small minority.

@Gigheimer

Lilybet I would suggest we don’t abandon the premise of free will within the U.K. and continue with voluntary vaccination programmes.

A combination of those already immune, those who are unlikely to be seriously ill from Covid, and those who are willing to take the vaccine through free choice is likely to put, what is in effect a virus that has a survival rate of over 99% , into the same realm as flu. Which we manage by an OPTIONAL vaccine (which by the way I and my children have every year). And which the NHS is set up and prepared for.

Sadly a risk still to some more vulnerable people who are unable to take the vaccine. Exactly in fact the same as other diseases.

We have an optional flu vaccine programme, and flu still kills 17,000 people a year, and yet isn’t compulsory and life isn’t restricted. Why?

Because allowing people free choice is both right, doesn’t allow the state to overstep its powers of bodily autonomy by the back door, and actually increases trust between the state and the population, leading to better medical and vaccine uptake in the long term. Sweden has managed without total economic destruction because there is a high level of trust between state and population, why erode the already Lower levels in the U.K. further? That effects compliance to EVERYTHING that sits under the social contract, and that’s potentially more damaging than Covid in the longer term.

We didn’t eradicate smallpox with compulsory vaccination, nor reduce the rate of any more infectious and deadly diseases. We did it via social contract and not losing the trust in the state.

Yes the anti vaxx movement and social media is an issue, but overstepping the boundaries of governments control isn’t the issue. You don’t counter a fear of force with more force because that way madness lies and it terrifies me people can’t see that.

The back door compulsory nature of this is the slim edge of the wedge - and no it’s not been said yet, but anyone with any PR experience can see it coming like a train and we need to question things BEFORE they happen.

The vaccine is almost irrelevant other than the fact it denies bodily autonomy so is a line that will be crossed.

Well said.

This totally binary adulation of the mainstream seriously concerns me. Mainly because it is driving people who want to discuss, or get attacked in the opposite direction. It is silencing people and driving them to quiet, underground rage and then they find the seedy fuckers there who will give them more and more extreme opinions.
You're right.
It seems like there's a certain type of person who enjoys divisive rhetoric: the people who are so convinced of their own righteousness that they feel entitled to stifle debate or insult anyone who doesn't think the 'correct'way, and those with extreme fringe views who want to exploit reasonable people's concerns for their own agenda.
Both groups are concerning

Side effects can be more than a headache

science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6520/1022

Most people on here haven't been resorting to name calling or launched attacks. I think I've patiently put my pro vaccine view across without attacking anyone.

It is a little frustrating when ignorant comments are made such as "SmileyClare, what if everyone who gets the vaccine gets cancer 3 months later, have you thought about that?" and other nonsense.

No point trying to dismantle a debate by moaning people are being mean.

@MissConductUS

It cannot be compared to small pox etc as those vaccines were tested over a number of years and then administered.

This part made me laugh

What's funny? Smallpox vaccines have been studied at least for 200 years, not 6 months

Fair enough, r.e possible reported side effects. In terms of risk assessment (vaccine or virus) I know what I'll be asking for.
My bil (NHS ivf consultant) has his vaccine next Tuesday. He's really pleased. It's brilliant news that the vaccination programme has started in my view.

You really think vaccine research in the 1800s was superior and more comprehensive than modern day?

Smallpox research didn't stop in the 1800's.

It is a little frustrating when ignorant comments are made such as "SmileyClare, what if everyone who gets the vaccine gets cancer 3 months later, have you thought about that?" and other nonsense.

What is ignorant to think about the long term implications of any vaccine?
Even the Scientists are asking these questions, and will continue to monitor for the next couple of years.

And because of the side effects, will those who work be able to afford to take a day or two off?

The long term implications of mass vaccine refusal are far more frightening to most people. It frightens me how anti vax movements gain traction and I question the agenda of some of these threads.

SmileyClaire you have, as have several others, but there are many who resort to hyperbole and outright abuse on here and elsewhere.

When you say you know what your choice will be, I wholeheartedly support that. But I want my choice too, haven’t made it yet, but I want the right to without threat of further life restrictions when the data doesn’t stack up.

Slightly off topic but it also frustrates me that people keep citing the vulnerable at the same time as supporting trust in governmental choices. The government has blood and emotional abuse on its hands for how they dealt with care homes and it breaks my heart.

11% infection/fatality ratio in the age of those settings Vs 0% under 44 and 0.4 under 64.

Sorry 0.5 under 64

This totally binary adulation of the mainstream seriously concerns me. Mainly because it is driving people who want to discuss, or get attacked in the opposite direction. It is silencing people and driving them to quiet, underground rage and then they find the seedy fuckers there who will give them more and more extreme opinions

No. If you're going rogue and listening to bizarre conspiracy nonsense and expounding extreme opinions, thats not the fault of those who pay attention to the actual news and learn what's actually going on.

If you're amongst those fools who are all about the #fakenews and how you "do your own research!", thinking you understand the science when you failed gcse chemistry, that's not the fault of those who are not as dimwitted.

@Gigheimer very well said

SmileyClare
You've been great.
My position is that I think there needs to be more clarity on the vaccine's comparability to other vaccines (eg I have a flu jab each year which has new strains in and that doesn't bother me, so how does the covid vaccine compare) and ideally a bit more time to assess any medium term side effects.

I'm very concerned about crimes that anyone not jumping to have it makes them anti-vaxxers, that people would only be happy to see granny if granny took the risk, that people who would rather wait before deciding shouldn't expect to be able to go places, there should be segregated times in shops for vaccinated and non vaccinated (that's a new one I've seen for the first time on this thread), that people who don't choose to have it as soon as it's available are of the "I'm alright jack" mentality.

For each person who is able to say 'I would have it and this is why'and who are happy to have a sensible discussion about the covid vaccine, there's at least one or two of the divisive position that labels anyone expressing reservations about a quickly developed vaccine as an antivaxxer who should have their ability to go about their lives strongly limited. That sort of hardline position is as concerning as genuine antivaxxers and neither group demonstrate much critical thinking to be honest.

But I want my choice too, haven’t made it yet, but I want the right to without threat of further life restrictions

Tough. We all have to play out part to live together in a civilised society, and if you choose not to do yours, why should you be welcome to be with the rest of us?

** claims, not crimes. no idea where thay came from

Smiley the long term effects of vaccine refusal scare me too. On that we are on the same page. The anti-vaccine movement and the reduction in MMR because of it is not good.

But my approach to it is different to yours. I think anything that smacks of enforcement plays into the fear and their messaging. It will honestly to god make this worse unless we ramp up and up the scale of governmental control.

Trust, always trust is needed.

Tough. We all have to play out part to live together in a civilised society, and if you choose not to do yours, why should you be welcome to be with the rest of us?

This sort of attitude is exactly what I'm talking about SmileyClare. There are seriously people who are so scared of anyone asking questions or critically thinking that they're all too happy to get swept up in divisive posturing because they're obviously right any anyone else is an antivaxxer who shouldn't be able to get on with life.

Will care home residents have a choice in whether they have the vaccine or will it be compulsory for them? What if they don’t want it?

Stormzy good bloody question, it’s not like they’ve been treated respectfully, or their families consulted so far.