So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

Andy Burnham has sent out a very sensible Tweet on this.

You can be pro vaccination and anti compulsory vaccination, it's not either or. Research has shown that all compulsory vaccination does is make the antivax movement larger amd makes people more wary. People should be given all the appropriate information to make an informed desicion. Consent still matters.

People should be given all the appropriate information to make an informed desicion

Unfortunately a lot of people are too stupid or too lazy or too badly informed or too daft to make an informed decision> See Brexit.

they’ve been driving for a cashless society " Yes this is true and a good thing too. but I only see people worrying about this on youtube.

Wrong, so very very wrong but I risk detailing. Nearly 20.5m people rely on cash in the U.K.. The only beneficiaries of cashless are banks, tech companies and large corporations that have many clever accountants that get them out of tax.

The losers would be sections of society working on the edges. The undocumented, those penny pinching on very low incomes, the homeless (no ID no account), small merchants that pay a % of every transactions not done in cash, it would kill the high street faster than Amazon is. Plus it leads to a rise in financial abuse.

We have rules on having to report cash transactions over a certain value, yes some are skiving a bit of tax, but I really don’t care because they aren’t the ones we should be focused on. More reliance on tech, less resilience as we are fucked if the systems go down through cyber attacks or sheer incompetence.

Easier “reckless spending” as it’s not real money, more debt.

I dread to think how some of my older relatives, and the less tech savvy would be abandoned behind us, and long gone would be the days of a woman tucking away a little here and there as an escape fund. Remember our parents generation sneaking away pin money from the weekly grocery allowance? I do, it kept them safe sometimes.

Oh and all that is available and debated from Good Housekeeping to the Financial Times. Not fucking YouTube, but that’s for the leap into conspiracy.

Again.

ok I’ll accept that was off topic and ranty sorry

Skedaddle I really haven’t been the instigator of hysteria, pull me an example out where I have called anyone a cunt, shrieked, indicated I’m anti-vaxx or given any evidence therein, where have I said I won’t take the vaccine?

I can show you several examples of where I said I might.

@teateateateateamoretea

People should be given all the appropriate information to make an informed desicion

Unfortunately a lot of people are too stupid or too lazy or too badly informed or too daft to make an informed decision> See Brexit.

The idea that people should only be able allowed to make desicions about their own body if they are some how "educated" or "hardworking" enough is abhorrent to me.

“ If you refuse a national vaccine then it follows that you are an anti-vaxxer.”

By that definition there are a hell of a lot of anti-vaxx HCPs seeing as the flu vaccine uptake for that group is around 70-75%.

The idea that people should only be able allowed to make desicions about their own body if they are some how "educated" or "hardworking" enough is abhorrent to me

Is it? The idea that idiots who can't even spell vaccination can keep us all in lockdowns because their rights are the only thing that matter to them is rather abhorrent to me.
But there we go.

I am concerned about allowing coercive control to make people get a vaccine as it is a step change in how we approach civil liberties and belongs more in China where your green /red light social capital approval dictates where you can/cannot go.
I'm sure many many people will want the vaccine so think it is unnecessary and thus all the more alarming that we are being primed to expect it as a thing. Everyone the vaccine is mentioned it gets said by whoever is interviewing that we can expect pubs etc to deny entry to those who don't.
Not sure the battered hospitality industry are going to be thrilled to be made the gatekeepers of civil obedience. Why don't they just test the vaccine as well as ever and present the public with the truth and evidence of its safety and effectiveness then there will be a stampede to get it! No need to bend people into shape if you offer them something they want!

That sort of hardline position is as concerning as genuine antivaxxers and neither group demonstrate much critical thinking to be honest

Actually I find UK vaccine skeptics have very cogent arguments and are quite strong on critical thinking. But they are constantly being strawmanned here on mumsnet and attributed crazy opinions that they do not generally have.

I, for one, hope that these new vaccines work, are safe and can bring us back to normality, but don't think it is necessary to force them on anyone who is unwilling.

@teateateateateamoretea

The idea that people should only be able allowed to make desicions about their own body if they are some how "educated" or "hardworking" enough is abhorrent to me

Is it? The idea that idiots who can't even spell vaccination can keep us all in lockdowns because their rights are the only thing that matter to them is rather abhorrent to me.
But there we go.

Yes it it because you're stating that anyone with a learning disability or low IQ or who has been failed by the education system should have their basic bodily autonomy taken away to benefit you, because you don't think they're worthy enough to decide.

I'm pro vaccination and hate the lockdown but thats a very dangerous precedent.

user1471588124 - eugenics haven’t quite lost their place in Mumsnet clearly! That’s awful. Who decides what level of education and intelligence is ok? Who decides about what that education should be, if they are informed but disagree are they still too thick?

Jesus.

hy don't they just test the vaccine as well as ever and present the public with the truth and evidence of its safety and effectiveness then there will be a stampede to get it!

Ok, if you want to wait 10 years, we'll do that.

Yes it it because you're stating that anyone with a learning disability or low IQ or who has been failed by the education system should have their basic bodily autonomy taken away to benefit you, because you don't think they're worthy enough to decide

Not at all (although those with an actual inability to consent don't have bodily autonomy anyway, decisions are made for them all the time, as they will here). I'm talking your regular, everyday gobshite who could learn and understand but doesn't bother.
I'm talking about the kind of people who voted for brexit and then googled "what does the EU do" the day AFTER.

@user1471588124

You can be pro vaccination and anti compulsory vaccination, it's not either or. Research has shown that all compulsory vaccination does is make the antivax movement larger amd makes people more wary. People should be given all the appropriate information to make an informed desicion. Consent still matters.

Completely agree.

@Gigheimer

they’ve been driving for a cashless society " Yes this is true and a good thing too. but I only see people worrying about this on youtube.

Wrong, so very very wrong but I risk detailing. Nearly 20.5m people rely on cash in the U.K.. The only beneficiaries of cashless are banks, tech companies and large corporations that have many clever accountants that get them out of tax.

The losers would be sections of society working on the edges. The undocumented, those penny pinching on very low incomes, the homeless (no ID no account), small merchants that pay a % of every transactions not done in cash, it would kill the high street faster than Amazon is. Plus it leads to a rise in financial abuse.

We have rules on having to report cash transactions over a certain value, yes some are skiving a bit of tax, but I really don’t care because they aren’t the ones we should be focused on. More reliance on tech, less resilience as we are fucked if the systems go down through cyber attacks or sheer incompetence.

Easier “reckless spending” as it’s not real money, more debt.

I dread to think how some of my older relatives, and the less tech savvy would be abandoned behind us, and long gone would be the days of a woman tucking away a little here and there as an escape fund. Remember our parents generation sneaking away pin money from the weekly grocery allowance? I do, it kept them safe sometimes.

Oh and all that is available and debated from Good Housekeeping to the Financial Times. Not fucking YouTube, but that’s for the leap into conspiracy.

Again.

ok I’ll accept that was off topic and ranty sorry

I agree with that too. No need to get rid of cash. People who don't want to use it already don't have to in virtually every situation.

@MyPersona

but the place to get information to address concerns isn’t social media

Why do you assume that someone who has concerns about these particular vaccines gets information solely from social media? And if you are willing to get the vaccines blindly it must be because you are educated?

@teateateateateamoretea

Unfortunately a lot of people are too stupid or too lazy or too badly informed or too daft to make an informed decision

So, you think it's an informed decision as long as it's in line with your views. Otherwise you brand it as stupid or lazy

teateateateateamoretea
'Ok, if you want to wait 10 years, we'll do that'

Not true, the usual lengthy time line being vastly improved does not mean skimping on thorough safety trials. The pace of progress is massively expediated by the international effort and huge focus. Fast doesn't mean not thoroughly tested and making out it does in your comment isn't going to help those with genuine safety concerns.
The fact that many scientific groups have dropped everything to focus on this is why it is happening much faster than usual not because they are cutting corners.
So let the trials data speak for itself and that will assuage more worries and improve vaccine take up far more than strong arm tactics ever could or should.

@ElinoristhenewEnid

*What about those people who cannot have the vaccine due to underlying health conditions? I have a relative with severe immunity problems and that the flu jab triggered symptoms of a life changing problem.

I heard that the COVID vaccine is a live vaccine so could prove very dangerous for relative.*

Current Covid vaccine candidates are not live vaccines.

I have two autoimmune conditions and have concerns around mRNA vaccines (e.g. Pfizer and Moderna) as the process they rely on appears to be more complex and error prone in relation to my conditions.

Your relative should ask his/her immunologist/specialist consultant regarding the safety of each vaccine in relation to his/her condition

So, you think it's an informed decision as long as it's in line with your views. Otherwise you brand it as stupid or lazy

No, I think its an informed decision when its actually informed. By facts and science. Not opinions, fear, and FB idiots.

Actually I find UK vaccine skeptics have very cogent arguments and are quite strong on critical thinking. But they are constantly being strawmanned here on mumsnet and attributed crazy opinions that they do not generally have.
I'm yet to meet an antivaxxer who doesn't lack critical thinking. I'm sure some exist, but there's a good reason why it's a fringe position.

I know plenty of people who are pro vaccinations, but are against compulsory vaccinations (either by mandate or actions that substantially limit people's ability to go about their lives and amount to coercive control). I know many people who are pro vaccinations but who have questions about the covid vaccine and want to do further reading and have more information before deciding on their choice. They do have critical thinking skills.

Your run of the mill antivaxxer is typically too wrapped up in conspiracy to have a sensible discussion with because any alternative view tends to be met with arguments to the effect of 'of course you'd say that, that's what they want you to think'. The hardline vaccinate everyone whilst calling anyone who asks questions an antivaxxer who wants to kill granny also lack critical thinking. Both groups find questions and alternative views disproportionately threatening.

Actually I find UK vaccine skeptics have very cogent arguments and are quite strong on critical thinking.

Ha! Thats funny.

@teateateateateamoretea

So, you think it's an informed decision as long as it's in line with your views. Otherwise you brand it as stupid or lazy

No, I think its an informed decision when its actually informed. By facts and science. Not opinions, fear, and FB idiots.

And yet you think a safe vaccine with trials data to reassure is only possible with a ten year lead time. 🤔

@trulydelicious. Consultant has stated'dont touch covid vaccine with a barge pole at the moment' due to possible reaction.

And yet you think a safe vaccine with trials data to reassure is only possible with a ten year lead time

Thats not even slightly what I said.

Come on now, you seem well able to string a cogent thought together, you can do better than that!