So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

Flu season? Chicken pox outbreaks?
Not all health care workers get either of these vaccines and work.

Most of the population isn't vaccinated chickenpox and only vulnerable are vaccinated for flu anyway. When you start working in the NHS, they do ask about vaccinations and if you haven't had the usual ones in childhood they generally give them. I'm not sure what happens if people refuse but it may not help their future job prospects if they do, especially if they work with vulnerable people.

Fully vaccinated myself with fully vaccinated older kids. I'll probably have the vaccine. But I agree with you on principlel OP. Medical treatment should never be coerced.

@Hopeful201 they didn't necessarily start from scratch with this they built on research with other similar viruses
Although CV19 is new corona viruses existed before that and were already being studied.
You also have to remember they didn't have to spend the very long process of time bidding for research money and resources it was bypassed and went straight into development. Most other research was stopped or paused and resources diverted to this, great for the vaccine not so great for other research.
For example 10 people working on 10 projects will progress at a slower rate than those 10people working on a single project together. They have also been helped by the high incidence of CV19 in the population which allows a bigger pool of test subjects and data than if it had only affected a few people so in terms of research it's good that it's so widespread and infectious (obviously not so great for people)

Most of the people on this tread are completely ignoring several points that have been mentioned over and over.

• most people are not anti vax. They are anti THIS vax because it’s so new and no matter what ‘shit tonne’ of money has been thrown at it, it hasn’t been tested long term. Yes I know, part of it is older but part of it is also very new.

So many people rambling on about ‘oh you give your kids vaccinations’ yes that’s because they have been around for years!

1. The horrifying part is not about not travelling abroad, or going into theatres of large venues. What is horrifying is the future thought of not being able to get a job, enter any shop, meet anyone inside, use public transport, go to Uni, visit other places in the UK without having this vaccine.

It’s not a matter of ‘well just don’t go to those places then’ the OP is taking about not being able to function in society. No work, food or uk travel.

It’s no wonder people are scared. We’ve got a lying government that chops and changes it’s kind every 5 mins.
Figures of deaths have been massively skewed. Media control this year has been off the chart.
This year has seen some unbelievable changes to people’s freedoms and lives in a way that no one thought possible 10 months ago.
Its starting to seem like the government could say anything now and we would have to go along with it. And the most frightening thing is people not questioning or independently thinking.

Away from the world of MN there are many many people who won’t be ready to have this vax in the next 6-12 months.
I just have a horrible creeping nightmarish feeling that we are starting the slippery slope to this being forced upon us by exclusion of so many basic necessities such as work and food.

A news reel keeps playing on my mind in 10-15 years from now about the awful life long side effects from those who took the 2020/2021 CV19 vaccine and how people are still suffering and payouts still going ahead.

"I’m pretty sure my kids didn’t want to miss months of school for a disease that is low risk to them but they still had to."

That is down to lockdown not the disease itself. It wasn't by any means obvious that lockdown was the course we should take nor that it has been effective or won't cause more deaths than Covid itself in the longterm.

One scientist (I forget the name and can't find it quickly) said not only are children unlikely to get the virus or suffer from it seriously but they don't spread it much either. If that is correct keeping kids at home never made any sense.

Isn't the flu jab available to everyone for a fee?
Not all vulnerable can have the flu jab.

I don't think anyone has answered the question about what should happen when this is no longer a pandemic anymore.
Perhaps it will still circulate here and there but no real clusters of note will take off the ground because X amount of people have been vaccinated.
Should those who chose not to be vaccinated still be shunned from participating in certain aspects of life then like sporting events or gigs? and if so why are we only expecting them to be vaccinated from Covid and not anything else? Someone vaccinated from covid might have the flu and spread it at a music event! is that ok? as long as it's not covid? Where's the logic? It's like people want those who refuse to get vaccinated punished for stubbornness!!!!!

This is not going to be a pandemic forever!

We don't even know yet how long the vaccine is going to give protection for...let's assume it needs to be given every year like the flu jab....are we really going to expect that from everyone forever more? even when this is no longer a pandemic? I saw the pfizer jab was reported to give adult volunteers side effects that felt like a severe hangover. I'm not sure how many suffered from those side effects but will people really want to put themselves through that when the pandemic is over?

@ACanOfBeans

I’ve had all my vaccines, my children have had all their vaccines. None of us will be having a COVID one, a) we’ve already had it, so it’s unnecessary. B) it’s too rushed for me to trust it. C) I find the sort of thing sinister and it persuades me against the vaccine.

You need to look into (B). There's plenty of information about how they have produced the vaccine quickly.

We've been vaccinating since the late 1940s in this country and our vaccination programme is highly successful. More lives have been improved and saved by vaccination, than any other public health intervention.

"Figures of deaths have been massively skewed. Media control this year has been off the chart."

That's what Chomsky calls manufacturing consent, the willingness of the media to broadly tow the government line no matter what that line is. It happened with Iraq and it happened with lockdown regardless of the rights and wrongs of both those actions.

A news reel keeps playing on my mind in 10-15 years from now about the awful life long side effects from those who took the 2020/2021 CV19 vaccine and how people are still suffering and payouts still going ahead.

What payouts?
This isn't going to be covered under the vaccine damage payout,

@Alexafrost

"I’m pretty sure my kids didn’t want to miss months of school for a disease that is low risk to them but they still had to."

That is down to lockdown not the disease itself. It wasn't by any means obvious that lockdown was the course we should take nor that it has been effective or won't cause more deaths than Covid itself in the longterm.

One scientist (I forget the name and can't find it quickly) said not only are children unlikely to get the virus or suffer from it seriously but they don't spread it much either. If that is correct keeping kids at home never made any sense.

That is down to lockdown not the disease itself

What a ridiculous thing to say!

It's been pretty obvious all along to the scientists and medics, that a lockdown was needed.

Yes you're right about children. It was Chris Whitty who said that about children. When he said it, is crucial. Have you heard of hindsight?

What baffles me is what anti-vaxers think the answer is. How the hell do they expect us to get up to normal without relying on a vaccine. It's needed to protect THOSE AROUND YOU, not necessarily you. Are you really saying you want everyone else around you to be vaccinated just not you and do you think that will work?

As PP have said, it is right for it not to be compulsory but perfectly reasonable for individual businesses to require it to protect their staff and customers.

You have figures to show that it was more than that?

Yes, also logic dictates it. With the magic of google, you can have the former, but I fear if the latter eludes you now, it always will.

Children represented 1.1% (1,408/129,704) of SARS-CoV-2 positive cases between 16 January 2020 and 3 May 2020 from COVID-19 in children: analysis of the first pandemic peak in England. pub in the BMJ.
1408 just in England just until the beginning of MAY.

Clinical characteristics of children and young people admitted to hospital with covid-19 in United Kingdom: prospective multicentre observational cohort study....a study of 651 children HOSPITALISED before July with covid.

FFS. 71. Beyond clueless.

What about the new hyper-inflammatory condition arising in children with covid infection? The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control estimated on 15 May 2020 that around 230 children had presented with this new syndrome in EU/EEA countries, with two fatalities. How many do you think since May?

71. Christ on a fucking bike.

Some of the basic structure of the vaccine came from another Corona strain (Mars, Sars?). Back then a vaccine was started to be created, but work stopped when it didn't spread and the lasting immunity that is iirc, up to 2 years.

There is no saying that this won't offer the same levels of lasting protection.

It would make more sense to roll out anti-body testing, and only give the vaccine to those that haven't got any, aren't exempt and actually want it.

Oh get a fucking grip.

@Dancinggroot 7% of children who are affected with covid die.

That figure is waaaaaay off. IFR for young people is around 0.0002%
IFR from BMJ

@MadameBlobby yes, to stop the nhs being overwhelmed because there was no other way to protect the vulnerable people who were more likely to end up in hospital. Now there’s a vaccine to protect the vulnerable. (And before someone jumps in about herd immunity again - immunity from infection also contributes to herd immunity)

I stated in the 71 number that was the data I had available and that is hospitalised FOR Covid. Not those that have tested positive, nor those hospitalised WITH. See that tricky language?

The numbers were not to say children do not get or spread Covid, it’s was specific to the point of risk Vs reward of vaccine damage only.

And don’t you find it interesting that we don’t know yet? All this vaccine testing (forgetting the mistakes already made and admitted by Pfizer in dosages), we are wholly signed up to the potential of a vaccine and vaccine passports (shush Gove your language was again tricky not the plan “yet” we are getting ahead of ourselves. So not a no then?”. Without any figures on side effects or damage?

Every medication and vaccine I’ve ever agreed to has had great numbers on side effects, risk of injury or death and the % against this.

But here I am, pilloried for questioning and not blindly accepting I have to be ok with it being compulsory through the back door.

Now one would hope that they will be provided, as far as they can be aware in the short term, but why would they bother if we can’t function without accepting it?

I would also like to know what anti vaxxers would propose.

Keep going with lockdowns?

Because if everyone was selfish and said 'I'll rely on others getting it first' then nothing would improve.

What if all the NHS staff refused?

I saw the pfizer jab was reported to give adult volunteers side effects that felt like a severe hangover. I'm not sure how many suffered from those side effects but will people really want to put themselves through that when the pandemic is over?

Yes.

I am mid 60s, I always suffer after the flu jab (arm very red and swollen) and the pneumonia job laid me up for a full day in bed, arm was hugely red and awful.
But... I would never ever not have the jabs.

DD was part of trial vaccine. She had no symptoms at all. 2 jabs, 3 weeks apart, no problem.

In fact even if the figures were 100% no risk 100% efficacy. I would still want people to have freedom of their medical choices. Because that’s the society I want to live in. One where we makes choices to protect others, not one where the state takes away our freedom to choose.

That’s not a positive step for humanity.

[quote bumbleymummy]**@Dancinggroot* 7% of children who are affected with covid die.*

That figure is waaaaaay off. IFR for young people is around 0.0002%
IFR from BMJ[/quote]
I know it's way off. Many many more than 71 children have had covid. NHS statistics also say that 23 0-19y olds have died "with a positive COVID test" (not of COVID, with the test so not 100% accurate necessarily).

I said based on OPs figures of 5 children dying and only 71 having had COVID this would equate to 7%.
I didnt say that the numbers were accurate, I specifically said based on those numbers.

Stella I gave my solution, it is the same solution used to every other vaccine. It’s utter hyperbole that “if everyone relied on everyone else”. That simply isn’t how society works, this thread shows that.

The majority would probably opt for the vaccine when available. A minority would be unable to have it, the NHS has its purpose there. A lot would already be naturally immune. And some would choose not to have it. As per the flu jab.

In those circumstances I may choose to have it on balance of risk. I would not choose for my children to do so, again on the balance of risk.

We will sever the trust in state even further by crossing the line into compulsory through the back door. Jesus even fronting up and saying “fuck it for x y z reasons you’re all having it let’s take a vote” would be better as it gives voice to everyone and then as society always works, we would have law by consent.

I hope many businesses insist on it along with schools and public transport etc. More will use them if they feel safe so it makes sense.

No one is forced to vaccinate but if you choose not to protect others then you can’t complain if that means less choice in other areas.

Why dont you wait until this actually happens . Non one knows what or if businesses will decide about people having to be vaccinated.. There is so much hysteria - wait and see then panic if you feel it necessary