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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

947 replies

Gigheimer · 30/11/2020 23:12

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right Hmm

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

OP posts:
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bruffin · 01/12/2020 11:23

@MyPersona

I know they only bought 40 million vaccines. ( last time I spoke to a friend that was involved in making it) so that’s 2 vaccines per person - so enough for only 20 million.

So I think for the majority it’s going to be a long way off yet.

That’s just the Pfizer vaccine. You need more sources.

3 different vaccines total 190 million doses according to the bbc
Burpeesshmurpees · 01/12/2020 11:25

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

Sarahandco · 01/12/2020 11:27

Well it won't be practical, at least initially. Not everyone can be vaccinated straightaway so they won't be opening the economy and at the same time excluding people who cannot even obtain a vaccine if they want to.

The government has said it will not do this so then ultimately it will be down to private companies to weigh up what is best for their business.

The governments of other countries may well ban entry without the vaccine and that is something you have to accept.

Alys20 · 01/12/2020 11:28

@Poppingnostopping thank you for that post. It has cheered me up quite a bit.

The govt can shove its apps, Big Brother twitter slogans, misinformation, fearmongering and mind control up its arse.

The Tories' total incompetence, corruption and out-of-control cronyism is the issue here. I don't want anything recommended by mates of Boris or govt advisers with shares in vaccine companies thanks.

I want independent advice from a variety of non-vested interests, before I have any vaccine.

SmileyClare · 01/12/2020 11:28

It's not a ridiculous statement. NHS workers are the first in line for CV vaccination. Why do you think that is? Do you think they should be encouraged to refuse the vaccine then if they feel "uncomfortable" about it?

millions of people are being treated by unvaccinated care professionals at the moment yes and it's catastrophic. This is why PPE is so stringent and NHS workers are tested for covid almost daily. A vaccine would solve this.

Pasithea · 01/12/2020 11:28

I already get abuse as I cannot where a mask for long periods due to a health problem. I have had the flu vax for the first time ever. It has made my chronic illness worse. I might as well get the abuse for no Covid vax as well. I’m not having it until it is proved to work in the general population and does not exasperate my extremely rare chronic illness.

BiBabbles · 01/12/2020 11:29

I think it's premature to think that government minister saying they're looking into the technology and that private businesses may use them like test and trace equals being effectively compulsory. If it is like test and trace, it's not going to include shops and many other essentials. Now ministers are dithering back and forth on it, but I think as it seems likely they'll likely put most of this on business choices and we can see now how many are handling that for an idea of what's to come.

Questioning the government is great, but with how wobbly they are, it's best not to jump to the pitchforks just yet.

So you’re all ok for your kids to have it, even when it poses close to zero risk to them?

I paid privately for my older son to get an HPV vaccine. This was some years ago, many people were still arguing that it was too small a risk for boys to be included, that it was being given too young (and would promote all sorts of sexual behaviour), that the vaccine was too risky and hadn't been out long enough. Now it's on the NHS list for boys too so I won't have to pay for my younger son.

This is unlikely to be given to kids any time soon, I'd support my kids getting it when it's recommended and available for them.

The government don’t have a high success rate for rolling out the sort of technology and programs required. Remember their trace app
Their NHS system ID cards.

Once the country is bankrupt from the combination of covid and brexit, there will be no money to pay for such things.

A lot of economists have spoken out against the commonly touted idea of the government having no money to pay for thing because COVID. It's going to be a handy excuse for years and we shouldn't let the government use it unchallenged.

The government has fucked up a lot of these projects, though often when they bring in "private partners", and I do think we should question them pushing out their power and authority. Government biometric ID cards were rolled out. I have one as required for a non-EU immigrant to enable me to prove my right to work and access services. I paid over £300 for the privilege twice. There is going to be a mess in December 2024 when they all come for needing renewal (while they're suppose to be valid ten years, both my cards had the same expiration date, even the one I got earlier this year and it's been noticed across groups that a lot of people over the last several years have the same date). It is a mess even when it gets rolled out.

We have the resources for better, governments have chosen solutions that fit them and their mates. I could see them wrangling another app like the UKVCAS IDV that rolled out this year (was required for all document submissions for a few months before being quietly withdrawn in most area), but I don't see it being either this all powerful tracking service some fear or this miracle freedom pass some hope for. Like you said, we haven't even got test and trace working, and plenty of people manage to go around without ever being asked if they have the app. I really have no fear it's going to restrict me even as someone who likely be very low on the finalized list so it may take me much longer to get it.

Gigheimer · 01/12/2020 11:31

Ah Michael Gove says it’s not the plan. Well the government disagreeing between its own ministers, that fills me with total confidence then...

We should trust them unquestioningly!

For those that conflated me with the Andrew Wakefield debacle please don’t. I have stated clearly that I am not anti vax. I am anti coercion but the back door.

Not once have I actually said I won’t have the vaccine. I stated that actually my parents will and I might. But again and again said that is by choice. I just completely disagree with compulsion by the back door.

And the vaccine claim numbers were 900+ paid out. There are 8000 claims and a very large debate about the effectiveness of the system and the unfairness of the payout definitions, meaning many of those damaged did not get justice. Feel free to check the many disability charities challenging this.

OP posts:
Belladonna12 · 01/12/2020 11:31

I'm not sure why you have to be so rude. No I don't think I should be first. And I'm pretty sure I don't have a bug up my arse. But if it's not available to everyone then it's not right that freedoms should be tacked on to who has had it. And even if they do vaccinate the under 50's there's no schedule for kids. So families won't be able to go to restaurants / on a plane or whatever. Maybe you think that's fine but I don't.

It will be available to everyone at some point, probably by the end of next year. It will probably never be compulsory in the UK anyway but if it is it would only happen after everyone has had the opportunity to have it.

canigooutyet · 01/12/2020 11:33

At least TicketMaster have their heads screwed on

fullfact.org/health/ticketmaster-coronavirus-vaccine/

ThornAmongstRoses · 01/12/2020 11:34

Completely agree with you OP.

Duggeehugs82 · 01/12/2020 11:35

@canigooutyet

What annoys me about anyone who doesnt want to vaccinate, is they dont but they of course need everyone else to, for them to be able to live without this disease, pure selfishness.

What annoys me is when groups are lumped in together, and it's automatically assumed that those who don't want it are pure selfish. Those who don't want it shouldn't have to state because they are exempt due to health or reaction to any of the ingredients?

There is a difference between someone who cannot have a vaccine due to health or reaction to ingredients and a anti vaccer, the nature of the word anti implys they r against vacines not unable to have them due to medical reason. If they r unable but if they was able and r anti them then they r selfish.
Dancinggroot · 01/12/2020 11:38

@Gigheimer

Gancanny fag packet maths on available data. 8000 claims for vaccine damage related compensation (granted adults and kids) in 35 years.

That’s 228 per year, that claimed, not that were injured and didn’t claim, could be higher.

Number of kids affected by Covid this year (on available data) 71. Only 5 of which died, all 71 had significant health issues beforehand.

Not saying those 5 were not absolute devastation for the families. But 5 Vs 228 would say risk of damage would be greater than risk of covid.

Firstly, I agree with you. Vaccines should be choice, and people free to decline if they wish. Making the vaccine compulsory to attend school/ work, use public transport, go shopping, go on holiday etc effectively makes it compulsory. Myself and my family will be choosing to have the vaccine, however people are within their rights not to if they so choose. There needs to be an alternative but I'm not sure what it is.

Secondly, your numbers aren't quite the way our works. Assuming your numbers are correct, 5 in 71 is 7% of children who are affected with covid die. I presume this is only very seriously ill in hospital children, as based on the number of schools isolating many more than 71 have been positive, and I'm sure more than 5 have died.

In terms of vaccine injury, around 228 per year, including adults and children.
In 2018 around 730000 children were born in the UK, of whom around 85% were vaccinated in their first year of life. Purely these babies under the age of 1 means 620500 vaccines given.
Now if we assume all 228 of those vaccine injury claims related to vaccines given to children in their first year of life, this is 0.03%. This obviously excludes all older children and adults, so the % is in all likelihood much less.

In these terms, 7% chance of dying from covid is a much higher risk than 0.03% chance of vaccine injury.

Like I said, I fully agree that making a vaccine compulsory isn't fair, however the comparison you made just doesn't add up

Gancanny · 01/12/2020 11:41

For COVID-19, data to date suggest that 80% of infections are mild or asymptomatic, 15% are severe infection, requiring oxygen and 5% are critical infections, requiring entilation. Most people don’t even know they have it. Your trying to force a covid passport for a virus most people don’t even know they have.

You live in a street of 100 houses. You are informed that during the night, 15% of the households will be severely wounded and 5% of them will be critically wounded and/or killed. You can help ensure its not your house by fitting a bolt to your door. Would you take the chance that it'll be other households rather than yours or would you fit the bolt?

SmileyClare · 01/12/2020 11:42

If you cannot have a vaccine on medical grounds you're not an anti vaxxer, that's obvious isn't it? You are relying on a vaccination programme being rolled out to protect you by heard immunity.

Restrictions on travel are already in place with regards to other vaccines. People who are medically exempt from vaccines can still travel with medical evidence of their exemption.

This is a moot point.

LoveandHateWhatABeautifulComb · 01/12/2020 11:42

Number of kids affected by Covid this year (on available data) 71. Only 5 of which died, all 71 had significant health issues beforehand

You think only 71 children have got covid in the UK?
Stop talking now pet, this place is just for grown ups.

canigooutyet · 01/12/2020 11:44

@SmileyClare

It's not a ridiculous statement. NHS workers are the first in line for CV vaccination. Why do you think that is? Do you think they should be encouraged to refuse the vaccine then if they feel "uncomfortable" about it?

millions of people are being treated by unvaccinated care professionals at the moment yes and it's catastrophic. This is why PPE is so stringent and NHS workers are tested for covid almost daily. A vaccine would solve this.

What an utterly ridiculous comment. Millions of people with little/no immunity are treated daily but health care workers who haven't been vaccinated against anything at the moment, never mind the patient in the next bed.

I get very ill when I get flu. Everytime I have seen a health profession I haven't asked them if their vaccines are up to date.

Flu season? Chicken pox outbreaks?
Not all health care workers get either of these vaccines and work.

And no they shouldn't be forced, just like they aren't forced to get the above and other vaccines. Many who work in health care are exempt from them to begin with due to their own health.

PPE isn't very stringent in all hospitals, many staff away from patients don't wear masks, and are only wearing them if a patient has something that requires PPE. Those hospitals that had gone down the no glove route prior to CV have also reverted back. The silly plastic things still used as before CV.

Testing must vary, I can only talk about 3 trusts and staff are only advised to test if they have symptoms or close contact. They are still doing the two week rota.

Hopeful201 · 01/12/2020 11:47

I am with you, this is scarily fast. I am not anti vax, but this seems very fast even with lots of money thrown at it.

FixTheBone · 01/12/2020 11:49

@canigooutyet

There are already loads of things that people do that require them to hand over medical information, such as applying for insurance, participating in extreme sports or athletic events even going trampolining.

Insurance - optional and not all types require any medical details,
Extreme sports - participation optional
Athletic events - depends on the type of event
Trampoline - for fun, name, dob and payment.

Well done, you reinforced my point.

restaurant - participation optional
cinema - for fun
holiday - optional

etc etc.

Nubbin · 01/12/2020 11:50

I'd go further - don't vaccinate your kids (normal measles, polio etc) - fine your choice - you have the freedom not to but absent a medical reason (immune suppressed, underlying condition, allergies) they don't get to go to state schools and risk the health of other children. Same here - don't do it fine - but don't expect everyone to be ok with your choice and welcome you into their space.

MadameBlobby · 01/12/2020 11:51

But not everyone wants to be vaccinated against a disease that is low risk for them

I’m pretty sure my kids didn’t want to miss months of school for a disease that is low risk to them but they still had to.

LoveandHateWhatABeautifulComb · 01/12/2020 11:54

But not everyone wants to be vaccinated against a disease that is low risk for them

No, but luckily the rest of us are less selfish and aren't only thinking of our own risk factors.

canigooutyet · 01/12/2020 11:55

We've seen without a vaccine they can continue education. (not saying the shit show is perfect and the at home bit is lacking in many areas)

Alexafrost · 01/12/2020 11:55

"You think only 71 children have got covid in the UK?
Stop talking now pet, this place is just for grown ups."

You have figures to show that it was more than that?

MyPersona · 01/12/2020 11:56

@Hopeful201

I am with you, this is scarily fast. I am not anti vax, but this seems very fast even with lots of money thrown at it.
What alternative approach to a mass vaccination programme would you propose?