Horrified that people still don't get it

[PoppingCandies]

And I say this as someone who has essential hospital care delayed. But if hospital beds in ICU are full of patients with coronavirus, how do you expect hoz

*How do you expect them to care for other patients? It's not about prioritising coronavirus over other illnesses. It is about staff and capacity for other illnesses.

Agree OP.

Unless we can get cases down, other services will cease as hospitals are full of very sick patients with covid and staff will be redeployed to cover for increasing cases and staff sickness

I'm not horrified. It makes sense to me how we've got here. The media whipped everyone up into a frenzy of fear earlier this year. They really went to town with all sorts of doomsday scenarios and many were terrified. And then people saw that thousands weren't dropping dead in the streets and they also saw things opening up in the summer and cases/deaths not doing much.

What do you expect lots of people to then do but go 'meh, this isn't serious.' And we know for most, it isn't (in terms of the actual virus). But yes, if there could be much better understanding of how the risk this virus poses most of us is through things like hospitals being swamped and there being no healthcare then that would be far better because it is a very serious risk. But please don't judge individuals. It's the boy who cries wolf, isn't it - we were shown horrors scenes from Italy, told there were bodies lying in the streets, told the Nightingales were going to be full of people dying horrible deaths as there weren't enough ventilators. The reality of what has happened has been very sad but nothing like that.

People don't get it because they dont want to get it because then they might have to recognise that the impact of their lives is real and necessary.

Plus we are very individualistic in this country. Subjecting individual needs and freedoms to the needs of the community as a whole does not come naturally. If we choose not to get it we don't have to recognise our inherent selfishness

@Hazelnutlatteplease

People don't get it because they dont want to get it because then they might have to recognise that the impact of their lives is real and necessary.

Plus we are very individualistic in this country. Subjecting individual needs and freedoms to the needs of the community as a whole does not come naturally. If we choose not to get it we don't have to recognise our inherent selfishness

Yes I think you are right. The individualistic nature of society is what upsets me and what has been so highlighted in this pandemic. Beyond that with the restrictions it's people refusing to acknowledge what's in front of them because they don't want to see it.

I don't agree with the argument about people being individualistic as a terribly bad thing. Many people in this country from a young age have had to stand on their own two feet with no help whatsoever building up a business which is now on its last legs. People that society have forgotten all along, people that have nothing so taking their only joy be it family friends or pubs, employment.... what else is there?

Well, health is what else there is

This wave is so much worse than the first one. Hospitals are struggling like mad, people are dying (my sons 31 year old friend dies last week, 3 days after contracting it), many many people who have it but have survived are experiencing long term, life changing effects.

we were shown horrors scenes from Italy, told there were bodies lying in the streets, told the Nightingales were going to be full of people dying horrible deaths as there weren't enough ventilators. The reality of what has happened has been very sad but nothing like that.

Is it possible that it hasn't been like that because we locked down? As soon as life went back to normal(ish), it started spreading again.

Our hospitals were bad back in March/ April. They just made the criteria for getting inside hospital so high to hide it that there was a lot of incredibly sick and frightened people left at home.

I don’t think the majority don’t get it, just that there wants come first. You only have to look at how many have said they will break the rules at Christmas to see that.

It’s very saddening to see how many don’t look at the wider picture.

I don't think we're any more individualistic than any other society.

Self care matters. If I break my mental health by prolonged neglect of my social needs who puts me right? Oh yes I'll be contacting my NHS GP for anti-depressants. #SaveTheNHS.

I'm not having wild parties. Had one cluster of people in my home once, legally, within the rules, windows open to hold a youth group planning meeting. But I am overlooking surplus children on a walk because while it falls foul of the law, it is less morally wrong than leaving one at home to not exceed an arbitary number dreamed up by a bunch of men who don't spend much time parenting their offspring.

I get it. But I'd really like my DCs to see their family at Christmas for the first or second time in 2020. Some relatives they haven't seen in over a year now and it could be 18m- 2years by the time travel arrangements are practical.

I'm not refusing to put on my own mental health oxygen mask so that "Cynthia" at 8 chains of separation doesn't end up in ITU critically ill when any infection over this winter was likely to overwhelm her immune system. Viruses spread. We didn't have this outcry in 2018 when there were 50 000 excess deaths caused by a bad flu season and poorly matched flu vaccine.

It's at best pointless moralising over this, and potentially harmful when catching a virus is seen as a stigma and encourages people to cover up if they are mildly ill.

It's been dragging on for 8 months now with no end in sight. People have to live sensibly about it.

Is it possible that it hasn't been like that because we locked down?

Exactly, but many people can't seem to equate the two.

We could fatally infect grandparents with flu or norovirus any Christmas.

Probably less chance this year due to the lack of Christmas parties and crowded school halls watching nativities.

People are thick. Look at how many voted for Trump.

It is about prioritising covid over other cases. Hospitals cleared other services to make space for covid - that’s prioritisation. They didn’t say “we are allocating X number of beds for covid patients and will triage who gets them to ensure we can still provide other urgent services”. I’m not saying that’s what they should have done, but it is prioritisation of covid.

Watch this week’s Hospital - cancer operations from March only being redone in September, and one of the example they used, the cancer had spread in the meantime. People with aneurysms that could burst at any moment have been waiting for months for their surgery due to covid capacity- can you imagine how terrifying that will have been?

I think you don’t need to have much humanity to understand why people in that situation feel upset by hard done by.

I’m always surprised that others are shocked by people primarily acting in their own interests. We have a biological imperative to ensure our own and our families well being above the needs of all others.
The dictates of complex societies can cause us to be more empathetic and even to make sacrifices for others/strangers but we will always be ultimately selfish beings.
In the end when the shit hits the fan we will always put the needs of ourselves and those dearest to us first.

Hospitals are always in crisis at this time of year.

Only 10% of all of the hospital beds in England are patients with COVID. Some will have caught Covid in hospital and some will be in for something else but with a Covid positive swab.

2019 Dec NHS in crisis
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/08/nhs-winter-crisis-5000-patients-spent-12-hours-ae-last-week/

2018
www.thesun.co.uk/news/5274308/nhs-swamped-flu-crisis-admissions-triple-in-week-killer-aussie-flu-strain-spreads/

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/11/winter-crisis-nhs-fix-care-safety

You can check Covid patient numbers in your local hospital here;
adapnation.io/how-is-your-local-hospital-coping/

Tbh I'm bored rigid of the whole thing.

@BogRollBOGOF

I don't think we're any more individualistic than any other society.

Self care matters. If I break my mental health by prolonged neglect of my social needs who puts me right? Oh yes I'll be contacting my NHS GP for anti-depressants. #SaveTheNHS.

I'm not having wild parties. Had one cluster of people in my home once, legally, within the rules, windows open to hold a youth group planning meeting. But I am overlooking surplus children on a walk because while it falls foul of the law, it is less morally wrong than leaving one at home to not exceed an arbitary number dreamed up by a bunch of men who don't spend much time parenting their offspring.

I get it. But I'd really like my DCs to see their family at Christmas for the first or second time in 2020. Some relatives they haven't seen in over a year now and it could be 18m- 2years by the time travel arrangements are practical.

I'm not refusing to put on my own mental health oxygen mask so that "Cynthia" at 8 chains of separation doesn't end up in ITU critically ill when any infection over this winter was likely to overwhelm her immune system. Viruses spread. We didn't have this outcry in 2018 when there were 50 000 excess deaths caused by a bad flu season and poorly matched flu vaccine.

It's at best pointless moralising over this, and potentially harmful when catching a virus is seen as a stigma and encourages people to cover up if they are mildly ill.

It's been dragging on for 8 months now with no end in sight. People have to live sensibly about it.

Mental Health is important. I agree. I am talking about the people who deny coronavirus is a problem. Who talk about how no other illness is getting priority in hospitals (ignoring that it sn't choice that is driving this it simply is numbers and logistics surrounding covid patients). Ignoring that the health of the economy and the health of the nation are linked and people ignoring that there is no way of isolating only the vulnerable

The thing is even when hospital beds were not full of Corona patients (in summer) a lot of hospitals still didn't take anyone else so... The beds sat empty.

Promote Corona at all costs and then in a year or so they'll all be sat there wondering why there's such a huge increase in other things - and where will the hospital beds come from then? Because therell be no excuse by then.

That's not happening now, it did in wave one but certainly the HCPs I speak to (and I speak to a lot, daily in different trusts) are really clear that things aren't being cancelled or deferred now.

I've had two situations in the last few months where I needed medical tests. Both times I was seen, referred and tests done within a day. It was done differently because of covid, but actually it was probably more efficient because they have a triage system in place now and do stuff over the phone where it can be leaving face to face appointments for those with an urgent need.

Sorry that was to FractionalGains clearly I'm a slow typer!

In the end when the shit hits the fan we will always put the needs of ourselves and those dearest to us first.

We're not talking about the shit hitting the fan though are we? We're talking about someone wanting to go for a pint, or whatever

The thing is even when hospital beds were not full of Corona patients (in summer) a lot of hospitals still didn't take anyone else so... The beds sat empty.

Where do you get that information from?

@FractionalGains

It is about prioritising covid over other cases. Hospitals cleared other services to make space for covid - that’s prioritisation. They didn’t say “we are allocating X number of beds for covid patients and will triage who gets them to ensure we can still provide other urgent services”. I’m not saying that’s what they should have done, but it is prioritisation of covid.

Watch this week’s Hospital - cancer operations from March only being redone in September, and one of the example they used, the cancer had spread in the meantime. People with aneurysms that could burst at any moment have been waiting for months for their surgery due to covid capacity- can you imagine how terrifying that will have been?

I think you don’t need to have much humanity to understand why people in that situation feel upset by hard done by.

I am someone who is directly affected by delayed treatment as I said in my OP. I don't need to watch a TV show I am living it.