Horrified that people still don't get it

[PoppingCandies]

And I say this as someone who has essential hospital care delayed. But if hospital beds in ICU are full of patients with coronavirus, how do you expect hoz

@Hazelnutlatteplease

^I don't think we're any more individualistic than any other society.

Self care matters...

I get it. But I'd really like...

I'm not refusing to put on my own mental health oxygen that "Cynthia" at 8 chains of separation doesn't end up in ITU critically ill...^

I don't think we are more individualistic but im going to start three I paragraphs with "I" sentences about how my needs are more important than what society needs to deal with a pandemic.

I'd laugh if it wasnt so indicative of the problem.

Society's that are acting as societies have 100% or close enough compliance on masks. They locked down hard and quick without moaning about civil liberties. And people rights to do weren't more important than stopping the spread of the disease.

There's advantage to living in an individualistic society. But not during a pandemic.

I didn't say that I am not more individualistic. I don't think that our society is more individualistic than any others.

I probably am a hell of a lot more individualistic than I was 12m ago, but that's what severing communities and personal connections will do for you.

Who is going to look out for me?
Friends and family have their own issues, they're not going to check in on me when they have no spare capacity.
School don't check in on a child with multiple SNs more than once in 5.5 months or even set accessible work.
Last time I tried to get hold of the GP in Dec 19, I gave up after 35+ attempts.
Out of 4 volunteering roles I was doing last year, only one is functioning, currently zoom only.

So yes, self preservation is important to me (and at least I'm honest about that). And tens of millions of others in the UK. And every other country in the world. Nothing unusual going on there.

@Hazelnutlatteplease

People don't get it because they dont want to get it because then they might have to recognise that the impact of their lives is real and necessary.

Plus we are very individualistic in this country. Subjecting individual needs and freedoms to the needs of the community as a whole does not come naturally. If we choose not to get it we don't have to recognise our inherent selfishness

THIS

I think there's been too much focus on deaths and not enough on indirect consequences (delayed treatments, mental health).

My daughter (a child) has been in constant pain and is unable to walk for more than a few minutes since December. We are still being told she is not a priority. We are treating the lockdown as something that is necessary to reduce pressure on the NHS to help her get treatment more quickly.
DD will not remember 2020 as the year of the pandemic. She'll remember it as the year she couldn't walk.

"We absolutely do understand this."

I disagree. Most people seem to say that lives are more important than the economy.

Some people try to disguise this by saying that the economy will be damaged if a lot of people are ill, which is of course true, but past epidemics suggest that the damage is smaller, as a lot of businesses 'limp on', than that caused by the forced closure of vast sections of the economy, even where most people involved are healthy. Doing this at intervals is probably even worse than one long closure as business spend money on restocking, re-employing, 'Covid-proofing' their premises, and then have to shut again and can't recoup the costs.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

I don’t think the majority don’t get it, just that there wants come first. You only have to look at how many have said they will break the rules at Christmas to see that.

It’s very saddening to see how many don’t look at the wider picture.

This.....

Selfishness and assuming their rule breaking is okay whilst moaning about others

@PoppingCandies

And I say this as someone who has essential hospital care delayed. But if hospital beds in ICU are full of patients with coronavirus, how do you expect hoz

Yes you are the only person who understands. Well done you

I think what I find consistently and astonishingly arrogant about certain types of posters on this thread is...

That there are hundreds of experts both across epidemiology, public health and economic experts working on the response to this on Government responses across the world.

That the response across the the vast majority of Governments (all with their own expert advisors and spanning different right and left wing set ups) is very similar with only a couple of exceptions is notable.

That these experts and all of the Govts will have discussed and weighed up choices between all of the things we've discussed: impact on the economy, impact to mental health, impact on non-COVID deaths, on livelihoods and on COVID deaths

...and yet, some people on Mumsnet think they know better.

I mean, it takes a certain type of person doesn't it

@MaxNormal

sorry to hear you are bored . You might not feel the same if like me you had to arrange a double funeral due to Covid.

@FractionalGains

South and parts of West Yorks.

Of course this might change depending on infection rates.

Derbyshire seem to be struggling more but I think this is around staffing - trusts are pulling in staff in non clinical roles to cover for staff absence. I haven't heard that things are cancelled.

That's not happening now, it did in wave one but certainly the HCPs I speak to (and I speak to a lot, daily in different trusts) are really clear that things aren't being cancelled or deferred now

I phoned my health visitor last week because I was concerned about by 1 year old’s development, to be told that sadly they couldn’t see me face to face and referrals in that area were currently on hold. Basically ‘sorry, you’re on your own for now but ring back if your serious concerns get more serious’. My mum (who works in the NHS) had an urgent referral made for an issue back in March, she phoned them last week for an update and they said they had postponed clinics in that area for the rest of the year and she would probably be seen in April/May.
So in some areas they most certainly are being cancelled or deferred.

Sorry OP I disagree with you. I think there are so many more other harms to consider than the risks of Covid.

I would like to see the data which shows how how full ICU is at every hospital across the UK on a weekly basis and how this compares with other winters especially the winter of 2017/18 where there were an estimated 50,000 excess flu deaths. I would also like to understand what other capacity could be called on if necessary.

I think the lack of access to preventative and diagnostic treatments for other conditions has gone on long enough. Significant health issues are bound to be being missed.

[quote Unsure33]@MaxNormal

sorry to hear you are bored . You might not feel the same if like me you had to arrange a double funeral due to Covid.[/quote]
Amazing how many mumsnetters know so many people who have died WITH covid. I mean 50k deaths out of a population of 70 million. And yet some know loads who have died.

@wheresmymojo

I am not sure the government here has necessarily taken the advice of the scientists at all times. The decisions have been political. I also believe the government has accepted it hasn’t fully costed this lockdown. People felt very differently about the first one I think, but are now starting to wonder where this will end as unlike some other countries, it hasn’t led to us being able to get out, get the economy going again and those vulnerable to covid to feel less fearful of catching it. If the vaccine weren’t on the horizon we would be utterly utterly fucked.

We live in a democracy and people are allowed an opinion on the government of the day, and don’t just have to say “I’m sure they know better so I won’t bother having an opinion”.

Really not what I'm saying but whatever.

@HesterShaw1

So basically - you're a totally billy bullshitter and will say anything on this thread if you feel like it proves your case.

How obnoxious you are!

So many people claim to have had the "flu" and believe that they have had it. They have not experienced an actual flu virus, but have had a very bad cold. A very bad cold can make you feel absolutely awful - but it doesn't make it flu.

FFS read my post.

I will do the maths with you...

17,000 people die on average from the flu each year

The IFR is 0.1% so 99.9% get flu and do not do die.

This is a scientific fact, it is not made up of people who 'have a bad cold'

For 17,000 people to die = 1.7M get the flu each year.

In 40 years of someone's life = 68M cases of the flu.

And you've never known anyone in your entire life to have the flu?

I don't give a shit if you think I'm being obnoxious.

By all means, have an opinion but making any old shite up, totally out with the actual facts to back it up gives me the rage.

And I would like to see how NHS staff absence rates compare this year to previous years, to understand if the NHS is really at risk because of lack of staff

@IwishIwasyoda

Sorry OP I disagree with you. I think there are so many more other harms to consider than the risks of Covid.

I would like to see the data which shows how how full ICU is at every hospital across the UK on a weekly basis and how this compares with other winters especially the winter of 2017/18 where there were an estimated 50,000 excess flu deaths. I would also like to understand what other capacity could be called on if necessary.

I think the lack of access to preventative and diagnostic treatments for other conditions has gone on long enough. Significant health issues are bound to be being missed.

It is not just how full ICU is. It's staff having to isolate. It's the logistics of keeping covid and non Covid patients separate etc.

@Unsure33 I'm sorry for your loss, of course you're going to feel strongly if you're personally impacted.

The reality is that there's only so long the humam brain can sustain fear about a particular threat before it becomes normalised, it's a perfectly normal protective mechanism to allow us to function.

The other reality is that 60 million people, most of them strangers to me, die globally each year. I'm being asked to care more about one particular cause of death than any other, but that is not logical to me.

I'm not doing anything to endanger anyone but my feelings are what they are.

Denial, selfishness, lack of reslience, shit decision making from the highest levels of government down to the individual man on the street have led us to the shitshow where we are now.
You only have to look at MN threads to see the ‘me me me’ mentality. Modern British society is completely and utterly repugnant. We could have saved lives, we could have saved businesses. We didn’t need to have an NHS on it’s knees.

@Retiremental

Denial, selfishness, lack of reslience, shit decision making from the highest levels of government down to the individual man on the street have led us to the shitshow where we are now. You only have to look at MN threads to see the ‘me me me’ mentality. Modern British society is completely and utterly repugnant. We could have saved lives, we could have saved businesses. We didn’t need to have an NHS on it’s knees.

This isn’t just a British thing. I know everyone likes to think we are the worst of the worst but similar scenes are playing out across the whole of Europe.

So basically - you're a totally billy bullshitter and will say anything on this thread if you feel like it proves your case

I genuinely don't lol. I don't have a vase to prove. 1 in 3 people get cancer. I only know personally one person who's had cancer and yet I clearly know more than 3 people.

What's your point?

@WhoopsSomethingWentWrong

That's not happening now, it did in wave one but certainly the HCPs I speak to (and I speak to a lot, daily in different trusts) are really clear that things aren't being cancelled or deferred now

I phoned my health visitor last week because I was concerned about by 1 year old’s development, to be told that sadly they couldn’t see me face to face and referrals in that area were currently on hold. Basically ‘sorry, you’re on your own for now but ring back if your serious concerns get more serious’. My mum (who works in the NHS) had an urgent referral made for an issue back in March, she phoned them last week for an update and they said they had postponed clinics in that area for the rest of the year and she would probably be seen in April/May.
So in some areas they most certainly are being cancelled or deferred.

I'm sorry to hear that, it sounds like there's a lot of variation.

Both my dad and I have had NHS assessment and treatment this year and it's been amazing, different but very efficient and timely.

Doing remote consultations and following up with face to face has certainly speeded up the process. He had a hip replacement in August, all pre and post assessment was done remotely and the only thing they struggled with was seeing a district nurse.

I've had a couple of occasions where I've had same day urgent referrals for further assessment with timely follow ups. In fact probably more efficient than I've had in previous years.

My GP is so on it, as were A&E yesterday, very clear that they don't want to miss anything by automatically assuming covid. Im so grateful.

When I speak to HCPs in different trusts, they're still doing all the same work but in a remote way at times, it only changes if numbers are so high that they're redeployed.

Maybe a bit more transparency and access to facts would help, given how much misinformation has been spread about all this. It's hard for people to feel worried about ICU bed availability if they have no idea how many beds are or are not available in their area. And it's hard for people to pretend it's not an issue if they're actually told that 90% of the ICU beds are occupied by COVID patients. Is that something you can check online in the UK?

In my city (not UK), the ICU bed occupancy rate – by COVID patients and non-Covid patients – has been published daily since April.

'would like to see the data which shows how how full ICU is at every hospital across the UK on a weekly basis and how this compares with other winters especially the winter of 2017/18 '

But increased hospital admissions equal increased ICU admissions in a matter of weeks, not immediately. So say for example at the moment ICUs are about the same for this time of year but by Christmas with hosp admissions nearly 2000 a day at the moment will tip them over the edge. So as the op has clearly said, that means there just won't be the capacity for every other critical illness to be accommodated.

I wonder how stupid the people feel who were bleating on in Sep that 'so what if positive cases are rocketing, hospital admissions aren't so its all a big drama over nothing!'

Some folk still, months later, cannot fathom the delay between positive tests, then a couple of weeks admissions go up then ICUs fill up etc .

Most people do get it.
A lot can't afford to do everything required all the time for the best.
Increasing numbers are struggling for many reasons.
People are complicated.