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Conflict in the Middle East
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91
Twiglets1 · 14/07/2026 09:27

JadeHare · 14/07/2026 09:23

Yes, just more rhetoric I’m sure. The man is an idiot.

I don’t remember anyone saying it was OK for Iran to pose tolls. I do remember lots of people pointing out that the SoH were open and toll free before this stupid pointless war started by the USA and Israel, which has achieved fuck all. And now the whole world is going to suffer. Well done Donald and Bibi.

I don't remember anyone condemning Iran's plan to impose tolls. Please correct me if I missed it.

JadeHare · 14/07/2026 09:33

Twiglets1 · 14/07/2026 09:27

I don't remember anyone condemning Iran's plan to impose tolls. Please correct me if I missed it.

Oh yes, that good old black and white thinking again. If you don’t condone it loud and clear, then you must be for it.

How about being for the fact that it was FREE with no problems before this whole stupid shit show started.

whoamI00 · 14/07/2026 09:39

Twiglets1 · 14/07/2026 09:27

I don't remember anyone condemning Iran's plan to impose tolls. Please correct me if I missed it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-by-president-macron-and-prime-minister-starmer-co-chairs-of-the-international-summit-on-the-strait-of-hormuz-17-april-2026

Joint Statement by President Macron and Prime Minister Starmer, Co-chairs of the International Summit on the Strait of Hormuz: 17 April 2026

First, we called for the unconditional, unrestricted, and immediate re-opening of the Strait of Hormuz. The right of transit passage without restrictions or tolls is the bedrock of international trade. Freedom of navigation means navigation must be free.

Twiglets1 · 14/07/2026 09:40

JadeHare · 14/07/2026 09:33

Oh yes, that good old black and white thinking again. If you don’t condone it loud and clear, then you must be for it.

How about being for the fact that it was FREE with no problems before this whole stupid shit show started.

I see ... it must be my black and white thinking that I notice no one condemns Iran for imposing tolls but do condemn Trump for the same thing.

It must be my fault that I'm the only one that condemns it on both sides because as the International Maritime Organization says, there is no legal basis for mandatory tolls in the Strait of Hormuz.

TopPocketFind · 14/07/2026 09:40

From the BBC

President Trump has said the US plans to impose a 20% charge on all cargo shipped through the Strait of Hormuz, but is it workable?

“In short, no. I have a very hard time seeing that ever becoming a reality,” Lars Jensen, chief executive of Vespucci Maritime shipping and a former director at shipping giant Maersk, tells the BBC’s Wake Up To Money programme.

“The only way that could potentially work is if the US for some reason would say: ‘Fine, we will send you a bill. You will have to pay the money, or we will impound your ships’, which would basically go against any international shipping rules,” he says.

“I do not see how this could work in practice.”

Jensen adds that, despite all the comments from the US over whether the Strait of Hormuz is open or closed,”the Iranians de facto control the strait”.

OP posts:
RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 09:50

JadeHare · 14/07/2026 09:33

Oh yes, that good old black and white thinking again. If you don’t condone it loud and clear, then you must be for it.

How about being for the fact that it was FREE with no problems before this whole stupid shit show started.

Yeah. I just had the black and white on another thread. Oh you support this action to help X people, but you did not mention Y people, therefore you support attacks on Y people.

And talking of Y people. Saudi Arabia bombing Sana Airport in Yemen. Saudi Arabia say it was because an Iranian plane landed there. And the peace treaty in that area says no Iranian planes to land.

What I have not seen is mention of why an Iranian plane landed there, or tried to land. CNN says the plane diverted to a different Houthi controlled airport.

My thinking is maybe Iran were trying to delver anti ship missiles. And if that is the case, good work to Saudi Arabia. But at the same time, if Iran were trying to send arms, it seems an odd potential win for Saudi Arabia not to claim.

But I suppose different people have different ways of doing anything.

JadeHare · 14/07/2026 09:54

Twiglets1 · 14/07/2026 09:40

I see ... it must be my black and white thinking that I notice no one condemns Iran for imposing tolls but do condemn Trump for the same thing.

It must be my fault that I'm the only one that condemns it on both sides because as the International Maritime Organization says, there is no legal basis for mandatory tolls in the Strait of Hormuz.

I don’t remember you condoning this shit show started by Donald and Bibi. If I remember correctly, you were quite gun ho about it. Therefore, by your very own deductions and assumptions about other posters, you must have been all out for this war, and most probably, still are. Despite the fact that is fucking up so many people who have no political skin this war.

TopPocketFind · 14/07/2026 09:58

Another expert's take on Trump's toll proposal

Iran’s toll on shipping in the Strait of Hormuz was actually more reasonable than Trump’s proposed 20%, Richard Meade, the editor of shipping journal Lloyds List tells the BBC.

OP posts:
RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 09:58

TopPocketFind · 14/07/2026 09:40

From the BBC

President Trump has said the US plans to impose a 20% charge on all cargo shipped through the Strait of Hormuz, but is it workable?

“In short, no. I have a very hard time seeing that ever becoming a reality,” Lars Jensen, chief executive of Vespucci Maritime shipping and a former director at shipping giant Maersk, tells the BBC’s Wake Up To Money programme.

“The only way that could potentially work is if the US for some reason would say: ‘Fine, we will send you a bill. You will have to pay the money, or we will impound your ships’, which would basically go against any international shipping rules,” he says.

“I do not see how this could work in practice.”

Jensen adds that, despite all the comments from the US over whether the Strait of Hormuz is open or closed,”the Iranians de facto control the strait”.

Maybe Trump will direct his navy to attack any ships not paying upfront ?

He probably wants paid in his own crapto money.

Twiglets1 · 14/07/2026 10:06

JadeHare · 14/07/2026 09:54

I don’t remember you condoning this shit show started by Donald and Bibi. If I remember correctly, you were quite gun ho about it. Therefore, by your very own deductions and assumptions about other posters, you must have been all out for this war, and most probably, still are. Despite the fact that is fucking up so many people who have no political skin this war.

You remember incorrectly Jade.

My stance at the beginning of the war was that I had mixed feelings about it and didn’t know if it was a good thing or not. On the one hand, a lot of people at the time (including myself) were alarmed at what the IRGC were doing to their own people re the thousands of murdered protestors back in January. We heard them asking Trump to intervene and it was hoped that the US attacking the regime could possibly help the Iranian people to overthrow them.

On the other hand, I am naturally against wars and am never “gun ho” about a new war starting. So you are very mistaken in your assumption that I was all out for this war or still am. I have stated several times that I want a peaceful resolution as soon as possible.

TopPocketFind · 14/07/2026 11:35

https://www.cnbc.com/2026/07/14/shipping-industry-trump-hormuz-toll-backfire.html?taid=6a5609f86f830000013a4c0b&utm

Global shipping industry sounds the alarm over Trump’s Hormuz toll plan

OP posts:
TopPocketFind · 14/07/2026 12:30

And ofcourse the oil, gas and UK government borrowing costs prices jump

OP posts:
RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 12:32

TopPocketFind · 14/07/2026 11:35

Are we going to get toll wars ?

Lets charge for Gibraltar, the English Channel etc. By the time oil gets to the refinaries it could be $500 a barrell.

trumpredcard · 14/07/2026 13:19

Why stop at $500? Higher! Higher!
Oh, to be a fly on the wall while China discusses this.

trumpredcard · 14/07/2026 13:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

trumpredcard · 14/07/2026 14:11

My deleted message was one thanking @JadeHare for her Herculean efforts in explaining her point. No idea why it breached MN guidelines, but hey ho.

Moving on...

RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 14:17

trumpredcard · 14/07/2026 13:19

Why stop at $500? Higher! Higher!
Oh, to be a fly on the wall while China discusses this.

Re China, they announced their trade data in their state media today. Pinch of salt as always, but they claim to be doing pretty well.

China's foreign trade grows 16.9% in H1 2026 to surpass 25 trillion yuan; imports surge 22.1% - Global Times

"Under the impact of disruptions around the Strait of Hormuz, China's stable supplies to the world have provided affordable products to global consumers and enterprises, maintaining their operations, they said."

And this bit here, that has been mentioned before on these threads :

"Wang also pointed to global green and low-carbon transition demand, which has created strong synergy with China's green products. In the first half of the year, exports of lithium batteries and wind turbines grew 37.6 percent and 35.6 percent respectively. Green mobility products such as electric vehicles (EV), railway electric locomotives, electric motorcycles, and bicycles increased 68.7 percent, 45.1 percent, and 31.5 percent respectively."

This is something I armchair watch. For a long time it has been known that the PRC had massive over capacity for EV manufacturing. And green tech in general. They had literal fields full of EVs that they could not shift. But now with the Iran war, the market for them magically appeared. Same with other green stuff.

It is estimated that the PRC got 20% of it's oil from the Gulf. But they have been diversifying their energy, because they have been planning for Malacca being shut down to them when they invade Taiwan. They also have a land border with Russia, and a rail network. So no pesky sanctions for them.

Trump could not have done more for the PRC if he had been a card carrying member of the CPC.

China's foreign trade grows 16.9% in H1 2026 to surpass 25 trillion yuan; imports surge 22.1% - Global Times

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202607/1365880.shtml

trumpredcard · 14/07/2026 14:29

China has also diversified with increased trade in Africa and Latin America. Those solar panels and BYDs are also cheap, so increased profits on turnover.

Btw, I was in a BYD recently. It's not luxury, but gets you from A to B cheaply.

DrPrunesqualer · 14/07/2026 14:38

Apologies
This is a massive post from
The Strait of Hormuz website
It’s a really good summary I think of NATO and it’s position
( I can’t link so you’re getting it all )

‘When NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte stood alongside Donald Trump in Ankara on July 8 and said that the US strikes on Iran were "totally crucial" — that "when you have a ceasefire and Iran is basically violating it, I think it is totally crucial that the US forcefully react" — he was doing something that deserves more scrutiny than it has received.

He was lending the moral authority of a 32-member defensive alliance to a war that alliance had not sanctioned, that no NATO treaty obligation required, and that one of its own members — Spain — had explicitly refused to facilitate.

The Ankara summit declaration called on Iran to "fully respect freedom of navigation in the Strait of Hormuz" and reiterated that "Iran must never have a nuclear weapon." NATO forces shot down Iranian drones near the Incirlik Air Base in Turkey. And Trump, returning from Ankara on Air Force One, declared the ceasefire "over" and launched another round of strikes on Iranian territory.

NATO, in other words, was present at the creation of another escalation in a war it has no formal mandate to fight — and whose origins it has been conspicuously reluctant to examine.

Who Started This War

The foundational fact that Western coverage has consistently buried deserves to be stated plainly.

On February 28, 2026, the United States and Israel launched air and missile strikes on Iran. They destroyed nuclear facilities, killed Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, assassinated senior military commanders, and initiated what Washington designated "Operation Epic Fury."

Iran did not attack first.
Iran did not attack a NATO member. Iran did not threaten NATO territory.

Iran's response — closing the Strait of Hormuz, launching missiles at US bases across the Gulf region, targeting shipping — was retaliation for the February 28 strikes.

Whether that response was proportionate, or strategically coherent, or legally defensible under international law, is a legitimate question. But the sequence is not in doubt.

NATO is a defensive alliance. Its founding purpose, as stated in the Washington Treaty of 1949, is the collective defence of member states against armed attack.

Article 5 — the clause that says an attack on one is an attack on all — has been invoked exactly once in NATO's 77-year history: after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States. It has never been invoked in response to an attack that a member state launched first and then suffered retaliation against.

The question that Ankara raised — and that nobody at the summit asked aloud — is whether NATO's political solidarity with the US in this war is consistent with what the alliance is actually for.

This is not a fringe argument.
On July 9, former US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused Trump of "once again" dragging the United States back into "a dangerous and illegal war with Iran." That characterisation — illegal war — from the most senior Democrat in recent US political history is precisely the legal question that NATO, at Ankara, declined to engage with.

Article 5 and the Geography Problem

NATO's collective defence obligation is not only conditional — it is also geographic.

Article 6 of the Washington Treaty specifies that Article 5 applies to armed attacks "on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer."

The Gulf region — where US bases in Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, and the UAE have been repeatedly struck by Iranian missiles since February 28 — sits well outside that geographic boundary.

US forces at Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar, where roughly 10,000 American service members are stationed, are operating in a country that sits entirely outside the zone where NATO's collective defence obligation automatically applies.

This is not an obscure technicality. It is a deliberate design feature of the alliance, written into the treaty text after careful negotiation in 1948 and 1949. The drafters of the Washington Treaty made a conscious choice about where NATO's obligations would and would not extend. The Middle East was not inside that boundary.

When Iranian missiles struck US installations in Bahrain, Qatar, and Kuwait on February 28 — in direct retaliation for US and Israeli strikes that had begun earlier that morning — NATO's Secretary General said the alliance "stands firmly with all allies." As of July 9, Iran has now struck military and civilian targets in Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Jordan, and the UAE — none of which are NATO members, and most of which sit well outside Article 6's geographic boundary. Jordan, a key US partner and host to American forces at Al-Asad and other bases, had eight Iranian missiles intercepted by its air defences overnight on July 9. The geographic spread of Iranian retaliation now encompasses virtually every US-aligned state in the Middle East — none of it within NATO's formal defensive perimeter. That was a political statement of solidarity. It was not, and could not have been, a legal invocation of Article 5. Rutte himself said explicitly: "Nobody is talking about Article 5."

But if Article 5 doesn't apply — if NATO has no formal collective defence obligation to a war being fought in the Gulf by a member state that started that war — then what exactly is NATO's role here? And who authorised it?

The Alliance That Didn't Say No
The most revealing aspect of NATO's Ankara posture is not what the alliance said. It is what it didn't say.

The Ankara summit declaration contains
-no reference to the February 28 strikes that started this war.
-It contains no reference to international law,
-the UN Charter,
-or the legal basis for Operation Epic Fury.
-It does not acknowledge that Iran was struck first.

It calls on Iran to "fully respect freedom of navigation"
-without acknowledging that the Strait of Hormuz crisis was triggered by the conflict that the US and Israel initiated.

This is political communication, not legal analysis. And it reveals something important about how NATO functions in practice: as a political community that provides solidarity to its most powerful member, regardless of the circumstances that created the situation requiring solidarity.

The contrast with Ukraine is instructive. When Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022 — an unprovoked attack on a sovereign state — NATO's political and moral clarity was immediate and total. The aggressor was named.
The victim was named.
The legal basis was clear.
The alliance rallied.

When the US and Israel struck Iran on February 28, 2026, the political and moral picture was considerably more complicated.
Iran had not attacked NATO.
The US had launched an offensive military operation.
The legal basis was contested.
And yet NATO's response — political solidarity, joint air defence operations, a summit declaration backing the US position — was functionally similar to its Ukraine response, without the same legal and moral foundation.

Spain Got It Right

The exception within the alliance is worth examining.

Spain refused to allow the United States to use its air bases for Operation Epic Fury. Trump responded by calling Spain "a worthless partner in NATO" and threatening to cut trade ties. At the Ankara summit, he pointedly criticised Spain for "handling Mark Rutte very badly" — a reference to an earlier bilateral dispute.

But Spain's position is arguably the most constitutionally coherent one in the alliance.
A NATO member state has no obligation under the Washington Treaty to facilitate an offensive military operation launched by another member against a third country that has not attacked NATO. Spain made a sovereign decision not to be operationally complicit in a war it hadn't sanctioned and that carried no Article 5 obligation. That is not a betrayal of the alliance. It is an exercise of exactly the kind of sovereign judgment the alliance's unanimity requirement is designed to protect.

The legal analysis is straightforward: Article 5 exists to protect members from armed attack. It does not exist to provide political cover for members who launch armed attacks. Whether or not one agrees with the moral framing, the legal conclusion is accurate.

What Iran's UN Ambassador Said — and Why It Matters
Iran's ambassador to the United Nations, Amir Saeid Iravani, condemned the latest US strikes as "a clear violation of the United Nations Charter and its international obligations."
He was not making a political speech.
He was making a legal argument.

Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." The exceptions are narrow: UN Security Council authorisation, or individual and collective self-defence under Article 51 in response to an armed attack. Operation Epic Fury was not authorised by the UN Security Council — Russia and China would have vetoed it. The self-defence argument requires that the US was responding to an armed attack; Iran had not attacked the US before February 28.

These are not arguments that will be adjudicated in any court in the near term. But they are arguments that the international community — particularly the Global South, which has watched the US and Israel launch a war against a Muslim-majority country, kill its supreme leader, and now threaten to bomb its water supply — is hearing and registering.

NATO's decision to align itself politically with this operation, without engaging with its legal basis, carries costs that the alliance will pay over time in its credibility with the countries it needs to maintain relationships with.

The Harder Question

None of this is to say that Iran's conduct has been blameless, or that the IRGC's attacks on commercial shipping, Gulf state infrastructure, and US bases are legally or morally defensible. They are not.
The Strait of Hormuz closure has caused immense harm to the global economy and, most directly, to the seafarers and civilian populations caught in the middle of a conflict between great powers.

The harder question is whether NATO — an alliance created in 1949 to defend Western Europe from Soviet aggression — is the right institution to be providing political cover for a 21st-century war in the Persian Gulf, launched by two of its member states against a country that had not attacked them, under legal authority that has not been clearly established, and in a geographic region that falls outside the alliance's foundational treaty obligations.

At Ankara, the answer appeared to be yes. But the question was never asked openly.
And the countries that might have asked it — Spain, perhaps France, perhaps Germany — stayed quiet in the room, or were simply outmanoeuvred by Trump's political energy.

The one country that said no was called worthless.

The Bottom Line

NATO backed the United States at Ankara. It backed it politically, rhetorically, and in some cases operationally. And it did so without publicly examining whether the war it was backing was consistent with the defensive principles on which the alliance was founded.
That is not a trivial question.
It is the question that will define whether NATO remains a genuine collective defence organisation — one that members can trust to apply consistent principles regardless of which member is the aggressor — or whether it has become something else:

a political solidarity club for the Western great powers, available to provide moral cover for whatever the United States decides to do next.

Spain's refusal to facilitate the operation was treated as betrayal. It might, in time, look more like principle.’
( Follow the Hormuz crisis, the diplomatic track, and military developments in real time at the Hormuz Strait Monitor dashboard.)

Slightly off the current subject here but a really great analysis

US - Iran Peace agreement Part 3
RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 15:47

@trumpredcard

Good article that. What site did you get it from ? You say the SoH website.

I think I only have one issue with it. And that is it mentions north of the tropic of cancer in the NATO documentation, and says not all of the war area fits that, then says this :

The geographic spread of Iranian retaliation now encompasses virtually every US-aligned state in the Middle East — none of it within NATO's formal defensive perimeter.

Likes of Kuwait, Bahran and Qatar are north of the tropic, so I don't think the "none of it" in the above fits. But that is me being pedantic really, because I totally agree with the rest of it. Tropic of Cancer map att for forum reference.

US - Iran Peace agreement Part 3
RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 16:01

On the CNN feed just now. This sound ominous.

"“This will be a different event, much more powerful,” Netanyahu warns Iran if Israel attacked

By Dana Karni and Oren Liebermann

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned Iran on Tuesday, “this will be a different event” if Israel comes under attack as the US-Iran ceasefire breaks down.
Speaking at the Negev Conference in Dimona, Netanyahu said, “Do not count on it being quiet if you attack us. Do not count on a rerun. Because it will not be a rerun, and that was already powerful enough. This will be a different event, much more powerful.” Dimona, the site of the conference, is near Israel’s main nuclear research center.
Iran last attacked Israel on June 8 after the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) targeted Hezbollah in Beirut. Israel was prepared for a much larger wave of strikes on Iran before President Donald Trump downplayed Iran’s ballistic missile attacks on Israel and imposed a ceasefire."

I wonder what that means ? "This will be a different event, much more powerful."

The way I read that, he is just itching to use one isn't he. If he has them. They have aircraft capable of carrying them.

DrPrunesqualer · 14/07/2026 16:04

RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 15:47

@trumpredcard

Good article that. What site did you get it from ? You say the SoH website.

I think I only have one issue with it. And that is it mentions north of the tropic of cancer in the NATO documentation, and says not all of the war area fits that, then says this :

The geographic spread of Iranian retaliation now encompasses virtually every US-aligned state in the Middle East — none of it within NATO's formal defensive perimeter.

Likes of Kuwait, Bahran and Qatar are north of the tropic, so I don't think the "none of it" in the above fits. But that is me being pedantic really, because I totally agree with the rest of it. Tropic of Cancer map att for forum reference.

I think the bold you highlighted is a stand alone comment Possibly

I got the article from

hormuzstraitmonitor.com

They have updates like this aswell

Jul 13, 2026Iran (IRGC)ATTACK
Mombasa(UAE)
UAE-flagged tanker struck by Iranian cruise missile in Omani territorial waters in the Strait of Hormuz. One crew member killed.
↳ Retaliation for: US third consecutive night of strikes on Iranian territory
⚠ One crew member killed
Released

Jul 13, 2026Iran (IRGC)ATTACK
Al Bahiyah(UAE)
UAE-flagged tanker struck by Iranian cruise missile in Omani territorial waters in the Strait of Hormuz simultaneously with the Mombasa.
↳ Retaliation for: US third consecutive night of strikes on Iranian territory

Scroll to the bottom of the site and there are occasional articles

RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 16:06

DrPrunesqualer · 14/07/2026 16:04

I think the bold you highlighted is a stand alone comment Possibly

I got the article from

hormuzstraitmonitor.com

They have updates like this aswell

Jul 13, 2026Iran (IRGC)ATTACK
Mombasa(UAE)
UAE-flagged tanker struck by Iranian cruise missile in Omani territorial waters in the Strait of Hormuz. One crew member killed.
↳ Retaliation for: US third consecutive night of strikes on Iranian territory
⚠ One crew member killed
Released

Jul 13, 2026Iran (IRGC)ATTACK
Al Bahiyah(UAE)
UAE-flagged tanker struck by Iranian cruise missile in Omani territorial waters in the Strait of Hormuz simultaneously with the Mombasa.
↳ Retaliation for: US third consecutive night of strikes on Iranian territory

Scroll to the bottom of the site and there are occasional articles

Edited

Ahh right. Will have a look for that.

Sorry I tagged my post to wrong poster.

Edit - site works for me. Wow.

DrPrunesqualer · 14/07/2026 16:15

RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 16:06

Ahh right. Will have a look for that.

Sorry I tagged my post to wrong poster.

Edit - site works for me. Wow.

Edited

🤣

I think you’re going to love it
its right up your street
lots of facts
figures
$$ cost stuff on oil

US - Iran Peace agreement Part 3
US - Iran Peace agreement Part 3
US - Iran Peace agreement Part 3
RedTagAlan · 14/07/2026 16:33

DrPrunesqualer · 14/07/2026 16:15

🤣

I think you’re going to love it
its right up your street
lots of facts
figures
$$ cost stuff on oil

Cheers. Will try tomorrow. A lot of these sites, even if they do work, might only work partially. Anything embedded such as open maps, google or yahoo connected are blocked.

There is an upside though believe it or not. Mumsnet is practically add free. Most of the add sites are blocked.

Swipe left for the next trending thread