Reconstruction of Gaza - realistic?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj41y42qxq8o

I think the problem with the below is the mammoth coast and the problem of who pays. To build a city of the size of Birmingham from scratch including public infrastructure to a sufficient standard using non slave Labour is going to be astronomical. Who pays? All the Arab states (although some with concentrated extreme wealth) have their own domestic pressures without stumping up hundreds of billions to produce a new sixth state. There could be international loans but that would bring into question Gazan public debt and how loans could be repaid.

There is also the thorny question about how Gazans go about establishing legal ownership of land or whether they need to buy it again. It seems like a conveyincing nightmare. One solution would be to build identical properties and allocate them the to the populace as a whole but would Gazans want this form of communism in terms of property? If you do have a housing market how do establish a realistic economy to support it?

International aid is extremely stressed and certainly as a UK tax payer I would hope we wouldn't get to involved and as Gazan reconstruction is talked about we should be conscious of the levels of poverty in other regions of the world.

The middle Eastern countries need to take responsibility for the Palestinans.
In what way should they take responsibility for them?
In terms of accepting them being repatriated from Palestine or in terms of rebuilding Gaza?

I think the prosaic question going forward for the next decade long after this war has faded from the news is whether it is sustainable or even moral to have a population of over 2 million people living in grinding poverty. No one seems to have thought of a long term plan that give Gaza an economy such to support reconstruction and therefore is Gaza to simply be one of the most impoverished territories on the planet and one that is in reality reliant on aid?

Gaza isn't going to be a new Dubai and in time we will see I believe a whole series of prefabricated buildings sprouting up with foreign aid groups giving a basic form of healthcare to support the people. I think therefore there is that argument to allow some voluntary migration on some sort of managed basis with a long term plan as the only realistic option for hope. What is the alterntive ?

That's up to them isn't it?

But you expressed an opinion that they should take responsibility and I’m asking you in which way you think they should.

The solution cannot be that Israel bombs Gaza into oblivion then moves the population out because it’s unliveable. That is ethnic cleansing.

And the long term plan is what? To move them back in eventually? If you were Palestinian would you honestly trust that Israel and the USA would let you back in? After what happened to the 48 refugees?

This can’t be the answer.

If I were living in Gaza and particularly if I had children there, I would be happy if a “friendly” Muslim country gave me the opportunity to relocate there while Gaza was being rebuilt, as long as there were legal assurances that we could return in future. Somewhere like Egypt for example.

People parroting “ethnic cleansing” are not showing empathy for the horrific conditions the Gazans are living in especially now it’s winter. Westerners deciding on behalf of Gazans that they shouldn’t move away from Gaza temporarily - it’s strange to me that you want them to continue living in abject poverty. I would like to see them offered the choice to relocate if they want to, with full rights to return when they want to. But I don’t see any countries offering to take Gazan refugees, apart from a tiny number of children & their families with medical conditions.

A basic way of showing empathy to Gazans would be a) campaign for Israel to abide by its obligations under the ceasefire and International Law and actually allow the required level of aid into Gaza now. Instead of blocking items like children’s clothes.

you in your fantastical life in Gaza might imagine you would be happy to be ethnically cleansed from your own land but Gazans might feel differently, they should be in control of their own future that is if Israel will actually allow them to have one.

I thought the point was self determination? What do you think should happen?

They are different considerations to what we were discussing and there’s no reason someone couldn’t campaign or support more aid getting into Gaza in addition to showing empathy for the idea Gazans may at least want the option of moving to a safe country during the reconstruction phase.

Why are Westerners trying to decide for them that they shouldn’t leave Gaza? I’m not saying they should be forced to leave Gaza. Only that it would be nice if they had the choice and one I feel I would take if I were in their shoes but that’s personal choice.

I suspect that certain Gazans will be given the opportunity to relocate at some point in the future- those with no ties to Hamas. And that the take up will be higher than you think.

A huge number of people in Gaza are originally from villages in Israel but after they had their houses and land stolen they were then forcibly removed from Israel. They have been denied their right to return. Surrounding countries are full of displaced Palestinians who were forced to leave with just the bags on their backs and not allowed to return - their land now owned by settlers.

Given that Israel have an 80 year old history of stealing land, displacing people and denying them the right to return and given that multiple Israeli government minsters have publicly called for Gaza to be razed, called for the natives to be forced out and the land given to settlers would you believe them if they said “I swear we’ll let you back in”.

Honestly since the start of this Israel have shown themselves to be war mongering, land grabbing and not to be trusted:
they have broken ceasefires;
held thousands of people, including children, without charge;
Israeli prison guards have tortured and raped countless Palestinians with many of those that were released now missing limbs, disabled, blind or coming out in a body bag;
are holding thousands of Palestinian’s murdered bodies hostage;
found to have deliberately murdered civilians - as reported by IDF soldiers;
they have taken half of Gazas land which they are now saying they will build upon;
they have demolished more villages in the west bank, stolen more land and are building on stolen land there;
killed innocent civilians in the West Bank including a child they shot just the other week;
they have stolen and built on more land in Lebanon and Syria;
they have bombed Quatar, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria and Palestine;
killed over 69,000 Palestinians, despite a ceasefire, forcing the survivors into half of Gaza taking the other half for themselves, continued to bomb them despite a ceasefire, shoot anyone who walks near an imaginary land, continued to control their borders and stop food from entering, denied dying children evacuation.

Such a trustworthy bunch, great neighbours to all, totally understand the word ceasefire.

Netanyahu has said he wants to achieve Greater Israel as have a huge amount of his government, their actions of stealing territory in the area they deem part of Greater Israel, displacing and murdering the inhabitants, shows they are serious about this. I do not trust them. I don’t think most people do, why does anyone defend them? Tell me what have they done that shows they can be trusted to give the land back.

You do realise they have forced the population into half the land which they are saying they will not rebuild and the half they have held onto they say will be developed. You do realise this is a land grab, just like all the villages they have recently decided to take in the West Bank, just like the land in Lebanon and in Syria that they have brazenly taken in the last year. How can you say with a straight face that Palestinians should trust Israel to give them their land back.

I’m not suggesting they should just “trust Israel.”

I’m suggesting that it’s strange for Westerners not to think they should decide for themselves whether they want to move to any willing countries during the reconstruction of Gaza, as long as their right to return is guaranteed by those responsible for the management of the peace plan such as the US.

The way you present things makes it hard to have a sensible debate because you seem to think it reasonable for example to suppose that any country would pay to rebuild the half of Gaza where Hamas are still present. Realistically, no country will do that so they either start rebuilding the half where Hamas isn’t a threat or they don’t start rebuilding at all. It’s not a “land grab” - the IDF have retreated to a line as agreed by the peace plan and they won’t move further back until Hamas agree to leave & demilitarise, also part of the peace plan.

If Hamas carry on refusing to leave or demilitarise, then the reconstruction of that part of Gaza will never be funded, however much other countries may sympathise with the civilians of Gaza. So I feel that international effort should really be focused at the moment on trying to persuade Hamas to fulfil their part of the bargain - to disarm & leave Gaza.

You do realise there are displaced Palestinians throughout the world, particularly in surrounding muslim countries, people who had their land stolen and have not been allowed to go home. My SIL has several Palestinian friends in Dubai who arrived there with literally the clothes on their backs. These are homeowners who worked hard for everything they had and they now have nothing while a bunch of unemployed people with no connection to the land now live on their land.

In the last two years they have stolen land in the West Bank, Syria and the Lebanon in breach of international law and nothing has been done. Israel are happy to make promises that they have no intention of keeping as there have been no consequences for decades of this kind of behaviour.

Israel has retreated to a line as per the first part of the ceasefire, but they were not been given the land, they were supposed to then leave and the deal never said that Palestinians would not be allowed to return to their homes in that land while they are there which is what has happened. Not only were they not allowed to return home but hundreds have been shot trying to get home, including a bus load of children.

Saying Israel can commit crimes against Palestinians and steal their territory because Hamas still exists is a joke, it is an excuse, Israel are stealing land because they want the land. They stole land long before Hamas existed and they will continue to steal land as long as the world lets them. The head of the government has said they want to achieve Greater Israel which would involve taking the whole of Gaza and now they have blown up all the Palestinian’s homes and are refusing to let them in to half of Gaza while they construct new buildings there. Do not say this is not a land grab or it is anything else, this is part of their long term strategy to gradually chip away at Palestine until there is nothing left.

As I have said over the last two years Israel have shown that they are not to be trusted:
they have broken ceasefires;
held thousands of people, including children, without charge;
Israeli prison guards have tortured and raped countless Palestinians with many of those that were released now missing limbs, disabled, blind or coming out in a body bag;
are holding thousands of Palestinian’s murdered bodies hostage;
found to have deliberately murdered civilians - as reported by IDF soldiers;
they have taken half of Gazas land which they are now saying they will build upon;
they have demolished more villages in the west bank, stolen more land and are building on stolen land there;
killed innocent civilians in the West Bank including a child they shot just the other week;
they have stolen and built on more land in Lebanon and Syria;
they have bombed Quatar, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria and Palestine;
directly killed over 69,000 Palestinians, despite a ceasefire, forcing the survivors into half of Gaza taking the other half for themselves, continued to bomb them despite a ceasefire, shoot anyone who walks near an imaginary land, continued to control their borders and stop food from entering, denied dying children evacuation.

@KoalaKoKo Israel has retreated to a line as per the first part of the ceasefire, but they were not been given the land they were supposed to then leave and the deal never said that Palestinians would not be allowed to return to their homes in that land while they are there which is what has happened. Not only were they not allowed to return home but hundreds have been shot trying to get home, including a bus load of children.

What do you mean by Israel were not given the land as part of the ceasefire? We all know this - the yellow line is temporary and Israel are not claiming they now own that part of the land.

Palestinians are not allowed to return to homes beyond the yellow line while the IDF are there because how can the IDF tell who is Hamas and who isn't? Every adult male is a potential thread to them. The no go area has now been clearly marked out with physical yellow markers and while Hamas hide amongst civilians, the land has to be separated into these two parts.

If Hamas lay down their arms and leave Gaza then the IDF will withdraw to a line further away and more Gazans will be able to return to their homes. Where is your anger that Hamas don't seem prepared to do this when they agreed to it as part of the peace deal?

Try to take your blinkers off for a second and stop blaming Israel for absolutely everything. While Hamas exists, there is little hope for Gazans of a better future.

I think the only thing we can do now is help accommodate Palestinians who want to get out and relocate over the UK. That region is only going to descend into violence again, I can’t imagine how scary it must be to have a neighbour like Israel.

Do you think Israelis, particularly near borders, might also find it scary to live next to Palestinians?

I think Hamas, PIJ etc are pretty scary.

Heard of any Intifadas ever?

How would you propose we separate out the peace loving, non antisemitic Palestinians from the Hamas supporters? Would you be happy to risk a Hamas supporter next door?

@dairydebris do you understand how racism works?

Yes

I can even teach you if you want 😉

I am sure you could

I can't see there being much appetite for international investment to rebuild whilst Hamas or any other irredentist movement are still there. Too much of a risk that they'll divert funds to attack Israel again as soon as they're up on their feet rather than doing anything to actually benefit the Gazan people, and the Israelis will again flatten the place.

It would be humane to allow Gazans the chance to decide for themselves whether they want to stay put or not. They're the ones who should get to decide. Sadly I don't think most of them will get that opportunity either, notwithstanding there'll probably be a slow trickle to Egypt.

Just to Egypt? What about that weird flight to South Africa which left from Israel.

Chiming in

The word 'just' wasn't in my post. I don't see South Africa taking many Gazans though, no.

That's because it is a difficult choice for any country that actually wants to help the Palestinians. If you accept them all as refugees, you are actually helping Israel in its plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza by being complicit in the 'encouraged' voluntary emigration. Damned if you do or damned if you don't!