Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

After the second world war the jews needed a country of their own so the UN gave them Israel. Problem was, it wasn't theirs to give.

It also didn't belong to 'Palestinians'. The land had many people living on it from different cultures and faiths. The idea was to split into different areas. Israel wasn't given all the land!

I really don't give a fuck who "owns" it.

I just wish they would all live there peacefully and stop trying to kill each other.

You mean re-created. Israel has come and gone as a country for millennia depending on who invaded/had power.

https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

It has been going on for thousands of years:

Indeed, the land could and was intended to be shared between Jewish people, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other smaller religions if you are talking faiths. It appears though that the Jewish people have gradually been reduced in numbers from all other middle eastern countries and are mainly in Israel but to some that tiny bit of area for Jewish people is just too much. The Arabs are the largest ethnic group in the whole of the middle east now. Many other smaller groups have been reduced in number, a polite way of saying killed.

The British last held power after the fall of the Ottoman empire and gave Israel a portion of the land. The surrounding Arab nations then invaded...... and lost.

The majority of land (over 90%) was owned by Palestinian Arabs, who also made up around two-thirds of the population. The 1947 UN Partition Plan proposed giving over half of that land to a new Jewish state, even though Jewish people owned less than 7% of it. That imbalance is one of the main reasons the plan was rejected and why mass displacement followed.

At the time the British had it since the fall of the Ottoman empire who previously had it. So therefore it wasn't Palestinian owned land or Jewish owned land etc. So it made sense to split it up for various people's who didn't own it but had lived there or in the area. Some want it all, some are willing to share. Wars have been fought and won and lost over thousands of years. However, I didn't start a thread about wars, The British ownership etc. Just about the Jewish people and their unique loss during the Holocaust and MY understanding of why the Jews needed somewhere since were victimised pretty much everywhere.

It wasn't "only" the holocaust. Jews have been persecuted, murdered and violated for centuries include the progroms in Eastern Europe, the expulsion of all Jews from England and across Europe and the horrific Crusade Massacres. They have never been safe from violence and the instantaneous seizure of everything they own.

I completely agree that Jewish people desperately needed safety after the Holocaust-that’s undeniable. But it’s also true that when Britain held the Mandate, Palestinians were already the vast majority living there, farming the land, paying taxes, and governed locally.

So while it’s technically right that the British “administered” the territory, it doesn’t mean the land was uninhabited or up for grabs. It already had an existing population with homes, farms, and villages. That’s where so much of the current pain stems from- people who’d lived there for generations suddenly losing their land and rights without having any say.

Jewish people needed refuge and Palestinians were displaced in the process.

Again the fact that some was sold so people moved out is forgotten, the fact that some moved out hoping the surrounding countries waging war would win and they they'd get the lot (didn't happen) is forgotten. The Ottoman empire fell. Empires come and go. Lots of the land was empty. Seems the Arabs want the entire middle east. It's not theirs.

That version of events has been pretty widely challenged now, even by Israeli historians. Most Palestinians didn’t just “leave”, they were expelled or fled because of violence, and over 400 villages were destroyed afterwards so they couldn’t return.

Some land was sold, but it was a tiny amount (less than 7%) often by absentee landlords under British rule. The idea that Arab leaders told people to leave has also been debunked- most were terrified and forced out during the fighting.

You can absolutely understand why Jewish people needed safety after the Holocaust and still recognise that Palestinians were displaced in the process. But none of that justifies what’s happening now- the killing of tens of thousands of innocent people, including so many children.

This history is really important to convey, especially when some pro Palestine groups are continually shouting about Israelis being colonisers.

Colonisation is a process that involves people going to an overseas country and living there primarily to service the mother country they came from. So English colonisers in Zimbabwe, or Portuguese ones in Brazil for example.

By contrast, the Jews going to Israel, both before and after WW2, were going there as individuals, not in the service of a mother country. And as OP says, many of these people came there out of desperation after huge amounts of suffering in various countries across Europe.

Go back and you will find Aborigines have land taken from them in Australia. Māori in New Zealand, Different native Indian tribes in The US, various peoples in South America. Sadly these things have happened and people in those countries attempt to move forward with their lives and not live by constant hatred. Countries over the last couple of thousands of years have been invaded and changed and many/most try to move forward. The area needs to move forward with peace and 2 separate states. Or they could just carry on as has happened if they want supported by people who seem to like for the conflict to keep going on.

I never really gave the matter much thought. After visiting Poland I see the need for Jews to protect themselves and Israel. I see that they have been killed and persecuted for thousands of years. I see why they won't give in to terrorism.

You’re right that history is full of injustice and displacement and people should be able to move forward. But the difference here is that it’s not ancient history or something people are still just coming to terms with- it’s happening right now.

Entire families are being killed daily, children are being starved, and an entire population is trapped without food, water or safety. That’s not people refusing to “move on”- it’s people trying to survive.

It’s also worth remembering that many Jewish and Israeli people are calling for a ceasefire too , opposing what their government is doing doesn’t mean being against Jewish safety. It just means wanting justice and peace for everyone.

@Wedonttalkaboutboris ’It’s also worth remembering that many Jewish and Israeli people are calling for a ceasefire too’

You mean the ceasefire which is in place?

Yes, a ceasefire is now in place. We will see how long it lasts. My point was that many Israelis and Jewish people have been calling for an end to the violence and for humanitarian relief.

@CatMouseandmaybeDog ’the exceptionalism of the Holocaust was mainly because it was committed against white people.’

The exceptionalism of the Holocaust was because it was committed in Europe, only a few hundred miles, often less, from Britain, to Europeans.
Communication was easy and faster in the 1940’s, and there were hundreds of thousands of Allied troops, plus frontline news reporters, to spread the word.
I don’t think the two events are comparable, on any level.

Phase 2 is when the fireworks will start (again).
Who’s going to disarm Hamas?
Only the IDF have the stomach for it.

Calling it ‘fireworks’ is a grim way to talk about more civilian deaths. Even if the IDF is capable militarily, international law still applies- bombing densely populated areas and causing mass civilian casualties isn’t justified, and the humanitarian impact is devastating.

They also tortured, imprisoned and murdered disabled people, gay men, roma people and polish people. Their numbers also add to milions.

You have missed out the genocide committed by Arabs during the Ottoman Empire causing the deaths of millions of Christians. Or the ongoing genocides today such as the of the Yazidis.