Pro-Israel - I don't understand

[plsexplaintome]

I've NCed for this as MN can be a vicious place lately, this thread may be a bad idea but hoping some genuine people will respond with their perspective.

Obviously there's a lot of nuance, but I don't understand how so many people seem to be pro Israel? My family are Jewish (I'm not as my mother isn't, but my dad's side are) and none of us support what Israel are doing. They say that as Jewish people, they don't want to see their people commit a genocide and push people out of their homes as this is exactly what's been done to Jewish people throughout history. And we don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to be against the actions of a government. (Though clearly some people are being antisemitic under the guise of defending Palestine)

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

I'm not looking for an argument so may not post again here as I don't want to argue withother opinions - I'm just hoping to hear from other perspectives. A lot of the media and public seem very pro Israel and I just don't understand. I'm not talking about protests here in the UK, as that's a whole other mess that's really muddying the waters and I'm not sure Palestinians would want these people speaking for them. If you are pro-Israel, please explain why as I feel I'm missing something here

Oh is this another faux naive I have no idea what's going on, can anyone explain type thread....?

There’s no point in explaining if you don’t understand.

Just about to say the same thing.

Goady and horrible under the guise of naivety

Yikes I know MN can be a nasty place but I wasn't expecting that so soon. If you don't want to explain then don't, you don't have to post to announce that you're not going to? I'm not trying to goad anything, I use MN to see other people's perspectives on things so I'm not always just hearing opinions from my own bubble.

If you head over to the citme board, you will be able to read a variety of different opinions and perspectives.

There’s plenty on the CITME board

Thank you I hadn't seen that board before, I will have a read

I honestly can’t make sense of it either. What I find most strange is how so many replies act like the stance is just self evident, like there’s nothing to even question, and the implication that you clearly already understand. You’re not going to get much nuance in a thread like this. It’s a bit of a dead end really.

I guess you could describe my position as pro Israel.

what I think is a bit more nuanced.

I consider Israel and Palestine pretty much both states. The October 7th attacks if done to any other nation could easily have been considered an act of war.

ok, war wasn’t declared but people were shot and raped in their homes and at a music festival.

so Palestine (or rather the Gaza Strip because as far as I’m aware the West Bank is PLO and wasn’t involved) committed an act of war.

so Israel took that as a declaration of war and is waging war.

now there’s an argument to be made about proportionate use of force (eg Coventry bombings, Dresden bombings, the US dropped the atom bomb on Japan even though Japan’s original pearl harbour attack wasn’t anywhere near that scale) but if you choose to provoke a war then it’s not possible to control how the other side reacts.

I don’t think how Israel treated Palestinians before Oct 7th was ok, but equally I see many countries where ethnic or gender or religious groups are treated far far worse (women in Afghanistan, the Yazidi, etc) and actions come with consequences.

ISIS tried to conquer and hold territory and a coalition of the US plus various other states basically completely broke them as a “state”. Hamas (who as far as I can tell are basically the same as ISIS) currently hold the Gaza Strip and honestly if one of the results of this is that they are broken I’ll be happy about that.

So am I right in interpreting this to basically mean that Israel was doing wrong against Palestine for many years, but Hamas responded with SUCH force that it pretty much became an act of war and sort of took it to a more extreme level?

It’s really easy to google this if you are genuinely interested, but what it probably boils down to is that people start from a different premise. You start from the premise that Palestinians are victims and oppressed. Many pro-Israel people start from the premise that Palestinians and other Arab nations have often been the aggressors, with the Israelis acting in self defence.

"I'm not looking for an argument"
Well, you've picked the wrong topic, because this gets very heated.
The best thing to do is to start some reading around it, and you'll realise how complex it is. Without referring to either side, things get simplified too much. Soundbites and slogans are chanted and turned into placards, or stickers or badges, but it's worthwhile actually looking at the history.

Yes

You cannot really boil it down that much. Seriously, start some reading, the whole region has been embroiled in conflict for many, many years.
It will take strong, just leadership and considerable compromise to achieve peace.

Could you recommend a place to start?

There are obviously different points of view. Some people take the view you describe, others take the view that by and large Israel hasn’t behaved badly, that historically they have been attempting to coexist with the Palestinians but have been forced to do things like blockade Gaza because of the attacks both directly from Hamas and also from other countries (Iran).

@plsexplaintome I have quite the library (I used to teach it!) so the list would be a bit long!
I would advise looking at authors who attempt to analyse without taking a particular side. Even then, accounts vary and evidence is conflicting.
Start with something like Amazon for a basic starter. I'll have a look and get back to you on the best overview. 👍

I don’t believe Israel has the right to be there in the first place. The entire idea was colonialist and racist and it has never worked. The conflict has been ongoing since 1948. I think Hamas are a murderous death cult and it is difficult to see any resolution from this point onwards.

It isn't black and white and Oct 7th didn't happen out of nowhere. That's the first point. Trying to understand it via a MN thread is unlikely.

Some people don't think the state of Israel should ever have been created in 1948. I don't know what I think about that one. It was pretty awful for the Palestinians living there at the time (they have a word for it - the 'naqba') and to some, appeared to be two wrongs trying to make a right. What happened during the Holocaust clearly influenced what happened.

In the intervening decades, there has been Western support for Israel, even amidst illegal settlements cropping up in occupied territories which further muddies the water. The Western support comes from the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and generally lives by the values most Western countries espouse.

It's so complicated that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Of course, some don't think it's complicated at all - they think Israel shouldn't exist ('from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'). But of course, the reality is, it's not that straightforward,

It's worthwhile looking beyond the soundbites as well. I saw a thread on here where someone claimed that Israel had ruled Gaza "since 1948". That's not true, it was under Egyptian military rule 1948-1967. I'm not making a value judgment here, just noting one of the many errors of fact which occur.

There was a cease fire. No major attacks from either side.
My Israeli friend says that many Palestinians worked daily in Israel e.g. if you employed a firm of builders you could choose either all Israeli or one that employed legally-working Palestinians. Because she knew how poor Palestinians are, she always chose them.
Now, because you are employing people to work in your home and they can gain knowledge of your home's layout, of where your panic room is and what the codes are, of your family and who's there and who's out, she would never do that again.
The attacks on the kibbutz were by people who had been employed by the families.

I get it, OP. I understand what you're saying. I've taken the time to read your OP and there are points I disagree with but have not dismissed because that's just not what I do.

Every perspective is worthy, so I say bring it. (That sounded less goady in my head!)

I'm neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestine. I'm pro-England as that is my country. I do have some thoughts, but as you say, MN is pretty vicious as of late and I'm not going to poke the bear.

I’d be really grateful for a good background/explainer too. Am aware of some of it, but not the detail and been trying to take a nuanced approach that distinguishes the women and children of Gaza from Hamas and also recognises that Netanyahu’s initial justified response to an atrocious act of war seems to have spilled into the disproportionate response territory - am not sure if I am trying to ‘both sides’ a war where I’m supposed [according to the media and demos in London] to fall firmly on one side.

Until a few years ago, I felt for the Palestinians but also felt the international community - the UN and the UK - had all played a part in the way it had been established and for letting it fester without intervening and trying to remedy the enormous fuck up we (UK et al) had made back in 1947. Ie, this is a war of our making too. But I am really NOT clear on the facts and the timeline.

I'd really appreciate that! It's hard to know whether authors are approaching with a bias. If you used to teach it I'm sure you'll have a great recommendation