Israel has ordered the whole of north Gaza to evacuate

[IGaveSoManySigns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czx05061vz9t

I don’t know why they act like this is the right thing to do. If you say "I'm going to stab someone", and then do it, it's still murder.

Brilliant post.

I wish EVERYONE would read this. You word it so well.

Thank you. 😊

I personally think the “but Hamas” rhetoric lost it’s power 58,000 dead Palestinians ago.
when you show some care for these people happy to discuss dehumanisation

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/09/10/von-der-leyen-announces-suspension-of-eu-payments-and-trade-partnership-with-israel

Bit of movement from the EU.

No one is "happy" when children die - that is obvious on a parenting website of all places.

It's a technique used to dehumanise anyone that expresses support for Israel. Or anyone who dares to suggest that the situation is more nuanced than just Israel bad/Palestinian good.

Dehumanise Israelis and everyone that supports Israel, we're all monsters.

Why the change of heart from her I wonder, and so strongly too?

Focus on what is happening in your own country.

Israel are simply protecting their own interests -
no matter how ‘unpalatable’ you may find it.

The rules-based order that used to exist, exists no more. Now it’s purely about power, and self-interest.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

(First They Came – by Pastor Martin Niemoller)
https://www.hmd.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/First-They-Came-with-new-branding.pdf

Because she's sick of seeing dying, starving children ?

About time. They have been dying for 20 months . It took her long enough.

Even if you argue Hamas initiated the conflict- that does not justify deliberately bombing civilians, starving children, or destroying hospitals and schools. International law is clear: civilians, especially children, are protected regardless of who started hostilities.What part of that do you not understand? At best it’s frankly embarrassing writing comments like this and does your argument no good:

“Again, none of those children would have been paralysed if due to the war if Hamas had not started the war.”

The suffering of Palestinian children- tens of thousands killed, tens of thousands injured, hundreds of thousands malnourished- is a consequence of Israel’s military actions and blockade, not some “natural outcome” of Hamas’ attack. Innocent people don’t lose their protections under international law simply because the conflict began elsewhere.

How very insightful of you.

You are at a loss for words, as usual.

In think the constant criticism of Israel is going to be counted productive in the end as ultimately I assume what people want are two peoples living peaceably alongside each other so maybe in 5 years time you want a peaceful Palestinian group having good relations with Israel as neighbours. The world is full of countries who were once at war that now can exist as neighbouring states with good relations (France/Germany for example). The hatred some people seem to have for Israel is setting up the conditions for a permanent conflict where there is no winner.

So many pro Palestinian supporters actually won't discuss what peace looks like as we all know the agenda is to somehow keep promoting the maximilist demands of radical Palestinians that Israel no longer exists. The prospect of a delegitimized Israel is one they feel can be achieved by a constant feminization of Israel, it's people and it's army (and by extension Jews worldwide). If we ever get a ceasefire the protesters that purportedly campaign against civilian casualties will morph into a group calling for 'justice for Palestine' with the inference of globalised intifada and take opportunities to denigrate Israel at any opportunity.

The same people who seem so concerned with death tolls I suspect are the same people who would gladly see Israel removed as a state and I think we would be naive not to acknowledge this.

Sorry demonisation

She was facing a non-confidence vote led both from the left and the right. Personally that is what I think put her into action. The EU has been sitting on an internal report that expresses concerns that Israel has been committing war crimes from earlier this year. That did push EU into speaking to Israel about increasing aid into Gaza - but there have been clearly ongoing concerns about Israel’s actions- including on the WB.

I also found this article interesting- Qatar is pushing UAE to close Israeli embassy in response to bombing in Qatar, which has really pissed off the U.S. as well. This will put the Abraham Accords at risk too. With the expansion of settlements in the WB Saudi Arabia is also going to be reluctant to normalise relations with Israel.

The article suggests Qatar was asked to take in Hamas leaders by U.S. and Israel in preference to them going to Syria.

https://archive.ph/GS6aN

Israel’s own citizens and army want a ceasefire.

Yet people here are claiming it’s the Israelis who are being dehumanised when they are not the ones living in tents amongst rubble, and who have faced a medieval siege preventing access to essential goods and seen their infrastructure destroyed as well as tens of thousands killed.

We can agree Israel has a right to protect her citizens but it’s gone beyond that. The only way Israelis are being dehumanised- as far as I can see- is by lumping them together and saying that they all are unanimously supporting BN. I don’t think that’s true. Even if it’s for only for the release of hostages rather than concern for Palestinians- some Israelis clearly want a ceasefire.

People are criticising Israel for murdering people, for land grabbing and displacement of a people. If you actually listen to ordinary Palestinians it is not that they want to necessarily dismantle Israel but they want the land grabbing, the occupations, the bombings to stop. Palestinians have been constantly under attack since 1948.

You and others have talked about pro Palestine supporters wanting to dismantle Israel but that is not the case. Even those that have expressed a desire for a one state solution say that they envision a country where the people from both countries can stay but have equal rights and be equally represented in the police, army, government etc…

If you look at maps of Palestine and Israel it is Israel and not Palestine that is constantly expanding territory, displacing neighbours and taking land. Many in the current government talk about Greater Israel, an idea that would see the West Bank, Gaza and parts of other neighbouring countries become part of Israel. You can’t say you fear being erased as you erase the other group and openly discuss completely erasing them.

As an Irish person I can understand the desire for one country - I’d love Ireland to be reunited, Northern Ireland is a little older than Israel at just over 100 years old and it’s partition also brought about war and conflict, it created segregation and an unequal society where the indigenous Irish catholics had less rights than protestants who came to Ireland during plantations (over 100’s of years so pretty Irish now). I’d love to see a united Ireland where everyone stays and is represented - interestingly my British unionist friend from Northern Ireland has discussed how she would like one country too but would like it to be part of the UK whereas I would like it to be part of Europe. Both of us are happy with the current situation though as living in harmony with equal rights is the goal. We can have these conversations without talking about erasing each other - we can all have equal rights and retain our unique identities.

Northern Ireland got peace not through the years of bombing and fighting but through talking and through compromise. The IRA never attained their goal of reuniting Ireland but the catholics got equal representation in the police, in the army - at all levels across the board. They are now more or less equally represented in government too. People in Northern Ireland have the right to identify as British or Irish or both, they can have both passports if they wish. They can live in any area, work in any job they are qualified for. There is still some sectarian violence particularly among disaffected teens but the IRA, UVF etc have largely gone, the bombings have stopped. There are no longer soldiers with large guns patrolling streets.

I believe if Israel stop expanding, renounce all plans to expand further, give back the land they have taken in recent years - that will go a huge way to ending Hamas. If people are able to live their lives in peace, have freedom of movement, equal rights, no roads that are just for one group etc… they won’t join terrorist organisations (as seen in Northern Ireland). Give Palestinians equal rights to walk the same roads, live where they want, buy land without the fear of it being taken away!

This.

It’s wild to me that pointing out Israel cannot continue killing hundreds of thousands of children and starving civilians can be described so obliquely as “criticising Israel.” Highlighting the humanitarian catastrophe isn’t an attack on the country.

It’s insisting that international law and basic human decency are upheld.

Israel’s current strategy appears to be creating conditions where as few civilians as possible survive.

You've just made this wild claim on another thread too... what do you hope to gain by repeatedly stating Israel is killing hundreds of thousands of children? Its just a straight up lie. It weakens any of your other arguments as how on earth can you be worth listening to if youre just repeating lies?

And I’ve responded to your comment on the other thread.

I’m not making wild claims or repeating lies.

The figures I’m referencing come from independent researchers, Dr. Gideon Polya and Professor Richard Hil, who calculated the death toll in Gaza as of this September 3rd. Their report estimates that at least 680,000 people have been killed, including 380,000 infants under five. Although the 20,000 children confirmed is horrifying enough.

Where is this safer area, please? Is there infrastructure in place to support these would-be refugees? No? Thought not.

Agree that 20k children killed is awful enough.

Your adding an extra 350k children killed by Israel is close to blood libel. Perhaps you should post a link to this report? Because it sounds like a lie specifically spoken to increase hatred of Israel....

I should have known better than to wade into this cesspit on a Saturday morning.

If Palestinians had murdered 20,000+ Israeli children I’d be on the same thread arguing the same points. I do not care about Israel’s image, they are doing an outstanding job of making themselves look horrific without any help from my little comments on mumsnet on a Saturday morning. Maybe some users wouldn’t have to spend 3+ hours a day fielding comments if they stopped committing war crimes.

https://arena.org.au/politics-of-counting-gazas-dead

The report was published in July- apologies, I thought it was September as it’s only recently been shared with me.

For clarity: I am referencing their research to highlight the scale of civilian suffering, not to make an opinion-based claim. The figures are estimates based on collected data, and even taking conservative verified numbers, the impact on children is catastrophic.

So the figures are estimates but you repeated them as facts and without linking to the source until pushed to do so. Can you see at all why people believe a lot of the things you post are cherry picked opinions that present Israel in the worst possible light rather than verified facts? You say you don't hate Israel but you certainly post like someone would who did hate them.

Yes, the impact on the children of Gaza is catastrophic. But you can't go around announcing people's opinions as facts across multiple threads.

At least one of the authors of this research is an activist who has been highly critical of Israel for a long time. There is evidence from 2013 of him referring to the " immense crime being committed against the Palestinian people". A snapshot of his writing shows us he is far from being an unbiased source so this is an important fact to consider when considering if his research is likely to be neutral or not.

“Beyond Tribal Loyalties. Personal Stories of Jewish Peace Activists” by Avigail Abarbanel is an important, must-read anthology of the views of 25 anti-racist Jews, who variously, from positions ranging from pro-Zionism to a-political apathy, overcame my-lot-right-or-wrong tribal loyalty and came to realize the immense crime being committed against the Palestinian people and their obligation to speak out for Palestinian human rights.

Of course this conversion has also happened for many non-Jewish as well as Jewish anti-racists who have been brainwashed by decades of neocon American and Zionist imperialist propaganda purveyed by the generally neocon- and Zionist-beholden Mainstream media in the Western Murdochracies, Lobbyocracies and Corporatocracies, this being reinforced by the ferocious defamation by endlessly lying Zionists who falsely label all critics of Apartheid Israel as “anti-Semites” and additionally falsely defame Jewish critics of this genocidally racist Apartheid state as “self-hating Jews”.

www.newageislam.com/books-documents/dr-gideon-polya/beyond-tribal-loyalties-personal-stories-jewish-peace-activists/d/10097

No I didn’t post them as ‘facts’ and I wasn’t ’pushed’ to post the source at all. I referred to the source and posted a link on another thread.

Again, great attempt at a deflection from the actual points I’m making through.