It's not about genocide but about winning

[Mikkymik]

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

A key difference is that the population of Gaza are effectively trapped in a much smaller area. The displaced people of Ukraine have widespread European support and because of this some have sought shelter outside of Ukraine. Others move to other areas of Ukraine to safer areas. Aid is readily available for those who need it. The huge number of internally displaced people aren’t trapped in the conflict zones. It is still war. It is still brutal. It is not acceptable and many people will be terribly traumatised by what they have seen and what they have lost.

But Gazans don’t have these same freedoms. They are stuck in the midst of conflict between two sides that seem to have no regard for their safety, they have been displaced numerous times, aid is scarce, leaving isn’t possible, support is split, medical infrastructure is destroyed as is educational infrastructure, agriculture, water systems. The fact so any people are contained within such a small area whilst receiving less than minimal aid means conducting war the ‘usual’ way automatically means way more civilian casualties in Gaza. Personally, I think you have to adapt fighting to try and limit the number of civilian deaths. International humanitarian law agrees. Israel must take “all feasible precautions to minimise harm to civilians and civilian objects.”

That doesn’t mean we have to support or condone them. It’s like saying murder happens everyday so what’s the big deal?

I agree.

Another key difference, is that Ukrainians have been taking shelter in many underground structures.

Hamas haven’t allowed any civilians to take shelter in their tunnels.

However, the person I quoted said that Russia hadn’t bombed hospital in Ukraine.

But they have.

Russia have carried out many war crimes in Ukraine.

That's a matter of opinion but I'm glad you acknowledge that it needed translating as the original sentence made no sense.

No, it’s not like saying murder happens everyday so what’s the big deal.

All deaths in war are a big deal, whether they are as a result of war crimes, or not.

People dying in war due to military intervention that is not considered a “war crime” isn’t okay either.

So many posters on this board keep repeating “war crimes” as if it means something significant, however, war crimes are symptomatic of every single war.

A poster didn’t even think Russia had carried out war crimes in Ukraine.

What does that say about the discourse around this conflict?

You acknowledge their pain, accept their suffering, replace their terrorist leadership with a new power, have Arab nations help rebuild with the billions of funding they have received, and launch a major deradicalisation programme. @Montysmoon

The only effective deradicalisation programme will have at its core, a Palestinian state.

Apologies, I missed the hospital comment.

And yes, Hamas are also committing war crimes and hurting the Palestinian people.

But I do firmly believe that Isreal is also responsible for limiting civilian casualties and civilian infrastructure and I don’t believe they have.

Excuses excuses. We all know that it’s the land that Israel is after, and they’re happy to kill kids for it.

Do we though? Or is that just what you "know" or put another way, believe.

Or put yet another way, your opinion.

It is my opinion, and increasingly that of everyone else. But you gaslight on…

Israel has trashed its reputation.

Projection much?

Isn’t that what Hamas did on 7/10. Killed kids because from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.

If Israel wanted the land, they wouldn’t have had the IDF forcibly remove Jewish people from the homes, leaving their entire lives, including thriving businesses, behind. They even dug up their dead.

They did that for peace.

What a joke.

Perfectly understandable, lots of people are confused about the meaning of words on this board. Btw what did you mean by palestine? Definitions seem to vary.

How can I be gaslighting you when we agree it's just different opinions.

I agree all deaths in war are a tragedy. I think the issue for me is when people dismiss the impact on Gazans as just ‘part of war’. Yes, people inevitably die in war. But war crimes are significant because they attempt to protect civilians in war. They hold governments accountable. The concentration of bombs in a tiny, heavily populated area, the withholding and then limiting of aid, the rhetoric re Gazans. All of that should be on the spotlight. It shouldn’t be dismissed.

I know I link back to this a lot, but telling 2m+ people that the scale of their loss (literally their whole county’s infrastructure, their family members, their homes) is just ‘part of war’ really contributes to the cycle of extremism.

Members of the Israeli government literally talk about taking the land and forcing the Palestinian to leave. Not random ‘backbencher’ types. Members of the cabinet with real power. Then, you look at the West Bank, the government endorsed settler movement and related violence. You can’t blame people for being a little concerned about Israel’s real aims.

Well it's a bloody awful way of going about it. And they know that. If any reasonable number of Palestinians are left alive and in the region that have guaranteed a generation of bereaved and embittered people sworn to destroy Israel.

I'm Jewish and to me these actions absolutely imperil the future of Israel and the safety of Jews worldwide. People will look at what it's doing and say 'If this is what the Jews do when they get a country and those outside it barely seem to criticise it, they must be pretty shitty people'.

Though that's a side issue because far more important is to stop the deaths and starvation of countless innocent people in Gaza.

Israel cannot 'win' this, I don't think anyone 'wins'.

Dp

They did that for financial and demographic concerns rooted in the discrepancy between the Israeli birth rate and the Palestinian birth rate not for 'peace'. They concluded that Israel would be stronger by consolidating control in the West Bank while leaving Gaza. It was never for 'peace'.

Yes they're happy to kill kids for it.

They're happy to kill adults for it too. Females, males, Muslims, land holders, women, babies, Palestinians, Iranians, Jordanians, Christians and Israelis.

Benjamin Netenyahu doesn't care about Jews or Christians or Muslims or Palestinians or basic humanity.

He is the psychopath.
He is starving the people of Gaza.
He is destroying the reputation of Israel.
He is arming men who committed the 7/10 barbarity.
He continues to arm them.
He is spending Israeli taxes on weakening the state.
He is behind genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

I must have imagined the Jewish settler throwing big rocks at kids last week.

Oh wait. I dont support what Israel is doing so i must be wrong.

I’m really not dismissing it.

The fact is that, as you say, Gaza is small, and it is densely populated.

Hamas do not identify themselves, they appear as civilians.

They fire weapons from close to or within heavily populated civilian areas and buildings that should be protected (hospitals etc).

They do the same with their military infrastructures.

It’s clearly not easy to fight such a war.

So whilst the legislation around war seeks to minimise harm to civilians, it can’t eradicate it.

I know I link back to this a lot, but telling 2m+ people that the scale of their loss (literally their whole county’s infrastructure, their family members, their homes) is just ‘part of war’ really contributes to the cycle of extremism.

But it is a part of war.

I don’t mean that to sound dismissive, I have never been a victim of war, but all wars end, and the people who have lost everything are left to try and pick up the pieces.

That is true of every single war.

There is no real justice following a war. There never has been.

By “bias” you mean the organisation that was paramount in setting up the partition plan has repeatedly told Israel it needs to stop over stepping the boundaries that both Israel and the UN agreed to in 1947?

The UN are biased in my opinion yes.

I think we will have to agree to disagree as I don’t think certain elements of this war are ‘just war’.

• The widespread bombing/demolition of basically all of Gaza’s infrastructure. The bombs are dropped, then the army roll in and follow up with controlled demolition of pretty much everything left.
• The withholding of aid
• The limiting of aid
• The militarisation of aid hubs, increasing civilian injuries and deaths

I think these factors/elements stray beyond the impact of war (which, as you said is still devastating in its own right). I think dismissing the above as just part of war ia a slippery slope for future conflicts. As flimsy as it seems at this time, I believe that humanitarian law must be respected and advocated for. If states are breaking it, it’s right to question why/be horrified/criticise.