It's not about genocide but about winning

[Mikkymik]

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

What sources are not biased?
In your opinion?

I haven't found any yet that are completely unbiased have you?

Even the BBC most people think is biased (I use them a lot for information though as at least they make some effort to appear neutral in their reporting).

Some people prefer to take the view of more unbiased sources than the UN which is known to have an anti Israel bias. Different organisations believe different things.

What sources do you think are more unbiased than the UN @Twiglets1? Which ones do you trust?

This isnt just war.

So many people (Doctors and Humanitarian Aid Workers) though who have been to Gaza and have also worked in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen etc have said that they have never seen anything as bad as Gaza. In a war most civilians have the chance to flee to safety.

Gaza has the highest number of child amputtees in the world.
Humanitarian aid workers had to coin a new acyrnym in Gaza for wounded child, no surviving family.
Which other war have no international journalists been allowed in? - none.
Which other wars have quadcopters shooting bullets into children in tents?
Which other wars are half of pregnant women malnourished?
Which other wars have all hospital facilities been deliberately bombed and destroyed?
In which other war is baby formula being prevented from being allowed in?
In which other war have hundreds of telegram social medias been posted of the occupying army dressed in the underwear of the female civilians and filmed deliberately destroying their houses and laughing about it?
In which other wars have disabled men been attacked by dogs of the occupation soldiers and left to die?
In which war have 15 paramedics and rescue been rounded up and tied up and executed and buried in a mass grave?
In which other war have there been protests from the civilians of the occupying side about the right to rape prisoners and the discussion about the right to rape prisoners taking place on tv and in the knesset?
In which other war have the enemy forces cut off electricity, food and water to the civilians of the other side?
In which war have ambulances repeated been attacked - video evidence of ambulances being attacked and then buried which only came to light because footage from a victim murdered was found?
In which war have more than 270 journalists been killed?
In which war has evidence been found of the repeated deliberate targeting of humanitarian aid vehicles?
In which war have dogs been systematically used to maul and even rape the enemy?
In which other war have renouned surgeons been detained in prison and raped to death?
In which war have people been ziptied and bulldosed alive or bulldosed in tents?
In which war are children so psychologically damaged from the constant (with very little respite) aerial attacks and aerial noise that hear constantly that they shake with fear every night?
In which war have families been displaced and have to move 10 times?
In which war have medical workers had their family deliberately targeted?
In which war has the enemy mocked a real baby death as a fake 'doll' and alleged 'Pallywood'?
In which war have tanks driven over 300 bullets into car of a 6 year old girl on the phone to the red crescent who negotiated with the army for an ambulance to be allowed to get her and the ambulance and 2 paramedics were subsequently blown up and the army lied about not being in the area but clear evidence from satellites shows they were?
In which other war have soldiers forced medical staff to evacuate hospitals leaving premature babies to die in incubators?

In which war have the UN and all humanitarian infrastructure been so attacked and put at risk and blocked that they cant adequately function?
In which war have 80 percent of houses been destroyed?
In which war have starving people queuing for aid been routinely shot at?
In which war have 118 been killed and 760 injured after enemy forces opened fire on people seeking aid from food trucks?
In which war have numerous people including children have had to have limb amputated without anaesthesia?

Ive worked for years in international medical humanitarian organisations in some of the most insecure places in the world and i can tell you that this is not how a normal war looks. Yes, war does include some horrible things and war crimes do take place but not to this level and there is normally a level of respect for civilians and humanitarian actors, medics and structures. Its certainly not how civilised countries in the 21st century should conduct their wars.

This isn't just war - this is the worst dsytopia - a 22 month long horror - we cannot allow this to become the new norm for how war can be?

If we allow this to become just the way war is done then we as the human species deserve a very short future on this planet.

All of the above can be clearly evidenced.

I answered above.

The BBC is more unbiased than the UN and so is the British government.

Many of the counties that make up the UN are very biased against Israel like for example, Iran and Pakistan.

Type into AI 'Does the Israeli occupation of Palestinian Territories fuel Radical Islamic Terrorism' and see what it tells you.

Of course there are other reasons such as the Iraq war and US imperialism. But it helps Israel to push fear of Radical Islam so that Israel are invested in as a bulwark against radical islam when actually the reason for radical islam is Western involvement in the middle east and Israel and the west would be more secure if there was an agreed 2 state solution, an end to occupation and a stop to further western military involvement in the middle east.

I don't know if you're aware of this @TooBigForMyBoots with regard to the UN being biased against Israel, but not all the member states that make up the UN even recognise Israel as a sovereign state. From Wikipedia:

As of June 2024, 164 of the 192 total member states of the United Nations (UN) recognize Israel.

28 UN member states do not recognize Israel: 15 members of the Arab League (Algeria, Comoros, Djibouti, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen); ten non-Arab members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei, Indonesia, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Niger, and Pakistan); and Cuba, North Korea, and Venezuela.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel#:~:text=As%20of%20June%202024%2C%20the,85%25%20of%20all%20UN%20members.

It objectively can't. If Gaza was just about living in peace they would have seized the opportunity handed to them in 2005. They would have focused on prospering in their newly established autonomy, would have voted in a moderate government as opposed to a terrorist one, and would have worked at building diplomatic relationships with Israel.

If indeed all they ever wanted was to live in peace.

Instead they voted in Hamas and used their autonomy as a launch pad for hundreds of thousands of rockets aimed at innocent Israeli civilians.

So no, this logic cannot be said about Gaza.

Type into AI 'Does the Israeli occupation of Palestinian Territories fuel Radical Islamic Terrorism' and see what it tells you.

Well, radical Islamists don’t really like Jewish people much, so I would imagine the existence of a Jewish state in what they deem to be Islamic lands, is utterly intolerable to them, yes.

However, Israel doesn’t need to push anything, there is a fear of radical Islam in the West and for good reason.

I doubt we’ll see western military involvement in the Middle East again, unless a situation arises where there is genuinely no other option. And I think an agreed 2 state solution is the best outcome for those involved in the current conflict, however, I don’t believe it would offer any security to the west as the issues with radical Islam go way beyond Israel and Palestine.

Thank you for posting this.

There's a common lie that due to the actions of Israel, people will now say, 'That's why people hate the Jews.'

It's the other way around. Israel was established because people hate the Jews.

What we're seeing now isn't more Jew hatred - that always was and nothing's changed in that regard. It's rage, the kind you get when a victim stands up to their abuser. It's okay as long as the Jews are weak, we can tolerate them in that situation. But strong Jews, the kind who punch back, that's evil.

Really no different to the rage any abuser feels when their victim pushes back and doesn't allow themselves to be victimised anymore.

"It's the other way around. Israel was established because people hate the Jews."

That's an interesting opinion.

I dont necessary disagree with you and i apologise for my poorly worded phrasing.

I meant that the west would be less exposed go risks from radical islamic terrorism if it had no further military involvement in the middle east.

And Israel stopping occupying Palestinian territory and enable a 2 state solution would increase its security.

That's a big statement @Twiglets1 !

You really think the British government along with the British Broadcasting Corporation is more knowledgeable and less biased than the combined intelligence of the rest of the world represented by the UN?🤯

Ironic that Pakistan & Bangladesh don't recognise Israel I think.

@Mikkymik And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

No they didn't.

It’s not a matter of intelligence. The UN is only as unbiased as the countries that make up the UN and as noted above, some of them don’t even recognise Israel as a sovereign state so clearly they are biased against Israel and this is reflected in the way they vote.

It can both be true that Israel exists because people hate Jews and that people can hate us because of Israel's actions and yes some people hate us anyway and always have.

I think it's in poor taste to compare Israel's actions to an abuse survivor. Maybe accurate in the sense that the abused can sometimes become an abuser themselves. But abuse survivors standing up for themselves do not cause mass collateral damage around them while setting their boundaries.

It's the same reason I find it very distasteful when people describe 7 October as a pogrom. It feels disingenuous. A pogrom is an attack on a vulnerable group that is enabled, encouraged or even carried out by authority. Israel has one of the best funded and most advanced militaries in the world, against a people without even a country, let alone an army. Yes, they are not entirely helpless, yes Hamas is funded and armed by countries hostile to Israel. But I don't see Israeli cities lying in ruin. I don't see Palestinian forces claiming Israeli land.

The British Government, who have a political stance (naturally), currently run by the Labour Party who have had a previous scandal involving anti-semitism which they have been vocal about resolving. A government currently trying to court voters from the right and also appease a US government in order to avoid being slapped with tariffs which would cripple the economy.

You think they are more balanced and trustworthy than an entirely apolitical organisation which is trusted worldwide by other governments (except Israel who have repeatedly breached borders they agreed to with the UN and have been reprimanded for)

Hamas has said countless times it wants to eradicate Israel and people chant ‘from the river to the sea’. You don’t seem particularly concerned about Israelis?

The UN voted against condemning Hamas for 7/10. So yeah, they’re pretty anti-Israel.

Have you actually been to Gaza? Have you ever been in a war zone? I’m going to guess no, in which case you absolutely cannot say that Israel is acting more immorally than any other country that has been at war, ever.

The hyperbole on here is astonishing.

But surely you would have supported WW2 if it meant defeating the Nazis? Israel isn’t at war for fun. It is trying to dismantle a terrorist regime so that it can live in peace and not in constant fear of another 7/10. Why is this so hard to grasp??

Because their actions do not speak of a country that is doing that.

For whoever keeps talking about the war leading to more extremism among Palestinians who have lost family due to Israeli bombing, I ask you: how do you think the views of the family and friends of the 1.2k Israelis killed in grotesque circumstances on 7/10 will have changed? And those of the hostages? Children who have been orphaned because Hamas butchered their parents? Will they become more tolerant of Palestinian hate or more embittered? If you’re worried about extremism, among Palestinians and within the Israeli government, this should be a real concern.

I’d also remind you that the irony of 7/10 is that many of those killed were extremely progressive and supported coexistence and Palestinian rights. Many of them campaigned for this. And yet they were tortured and killed in the most horrific way by the barbaric terrorists that run Gaza.