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Conflict in the Middle East

It's not about genocide but about winning

256 replies

Mikkymik · 24/08/2025 12:36

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

OP posts:
TulipLavender · 25/08/2025 22:52

I don't what else you would call it but genocide.

I feel like pro-Israelis on MN have lost their moral compass

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 00:24

Mikkymik · 25/08/2025 15:03

Point is the Gazans had no reason to engage in an 18-year terrorism campaign rather than embracing their newly gained autonomy. And seeing as they threw Fatah members from rooftops, it's a bit rich to pretend they are inextricably intertwined with Palestinians in the WB.

The simple fact is that the conflict was never about Levant Arabs aka Palestinians having a sovereign state, but about ensuring the Jews don't. They had multiple opportunities to embrace peace and a TSS, but they rejected it every time.

At this point, if they're suffering starvation, being killed etc etc, why isn't Gaza surrendering? Surely that's their best way forward.

Is 6500 killed by Israel between 2005 and 2023 no reason? Boys killed while playing football on the beach, family killed while waiving white flags, mosques, schools and hospitals attacked while trapped in what has been described as an open air prison with a severely life limiting blockade of good and people in and out.

For an average person born in Gaza in 2000, life until October 6, 2023, would have been defined by a constant state of precarity, shaped significantly by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and, in particular, the Israeli blockade of goods and people imposed on the Gaza Strip.
A Life Under Blockade
A "Closed" Environment: From 2007 onward, following the Hamas takeover of the territory, Israel (along with Egypt) imposed a comprehensive land, sea, and air blockade. For an individual, this meant being "locked in." Their access to the outside world, including the West Bank, Israel, and other countries, was severely limited. This restricted travel for education, medical treatment, and family visits. The blockade was often described by human rights groups and international organizations as a form of "collective punishment," which has had a devastating impact on the daily lives of Gazans.
Economic Hardship: The blockade crippled Gaza's economy, which was already fragile. A person coming of age in this environment would have faced a bleak job market. The unemployment rate was consistently one of the highest in the world, with youth unemployment often exceeding 60%. The manufacturing and export sectors were decimated, and the economy became heavily reliant on external aid, which created a cycle of dependency. A person's hopes for a stable career and financial independence would have been severely diminished.
Limited Resources and Infrastructure: The blockade also restricted the entry of essential goods, including construction materials, which hindered the repair of infrastructure damaged in previous conflicts. This led to chronic shortages of electricity, clean water, and medical supplies. A person would have lived with daily power outages, a limited supply of clean drinking water, and a healthcare system struggling to cope with basic needs.
Frequent Periods of Conflict: This person's life would have been punctuated by multiple large-scale military operations between Israel and Hamas. They would have experienced the 2008-2009, 2012, 2014, and 2021 conflicts. Each of these escalations brought death, destruction, and trauma. They would have witnessed the destruction of homes and infrastructure, the loss of friends and family, and lived with the constant fear of violence. The psychological toll of living in a conflict zone, with little to no safe haven, would have been immense.
Social and Political Context: The individual would have grown up under the de facto governance of Hamas, a militant group that has been in control since 2007. This political reality meant living in a highly politicized environment where internal divisions and external pressures were a constant feature.
The Impact of Israel
Israel's policies and actions had a profound and direct impact on every aspect of this person's life:
The Blockade: This was the single most impactful factor. The Israeli blockade (along with Egypt) controlled the flow of people and goods, effectively isolating Gaza. It directly caused the economic collapse, chronic shortages, and the "open-air prison" reality that defined daily life.
Military Operations: The repeated military conflicts initiated by Israel in response to rocket fire and other security threats resulted in widespread death and destruction. This created an environment of constant fear and trauma, shattered infrastructure, and led to the loss of life and livelihoods.
Control of Borders and Resources: Israel's control over Gaza's land and sea borders, including its airspace, dictated the movement of goods and people. This control also extended to a "buffer zone" inside Gaza, limiting access to agricultural land and fishing waters, which further harmed the economy and food security.
The Psychological Toll: Beyond the physical and economic hardships, the constant state of conflict and siege had a severe psychological impact. Living with the threat of violence, the loss of hope for a better future, and the inability to leave would have created a deep sense of despair and hopelessness.
In summary, for a person born in Gaza in 2000, their life until October 2023 was one of profound hardship and limited opportunity. Their reality was shaped by a complex and enduring conflict, with Israeli policies—particularly the blockade—being a central and inescapable factor that dictated their economic prospects, freedom of movement, and sense of safety and well-being.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/20/gaza-blockade-remains-after-protests-crossings-closed

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/12/generation-blockade-gaza-young-palestinians-who-cannot-leave

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2009/jun/16/gaza-blockade-israel-food

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/07/ten-years-first-war-gaza-operation-cast-lead-israel-brute-force

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-leaflets-dropped-on-northern-gaza-ordering-100-000-to-evacuate-amid-fears-of-imminent-ground-incursion-9609788.html

Ten years after the first war on Gaza, Israel still plans endless brute force | Avi Shlaim

Operation Cast Lead killed 1,417 people. Chillingly, the generals call their repeated bombardments ‘mowing the lawn’, says academic Avi Shlaim

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/07/ten-years-first-war-gaza-operation-cast-lead-israel-brute-force

Mikkymik · 26/08/2025 02:01

@TulipLavender

Interesting that you start your narrative with 2007 onwards. What happened between 2005-2007 before the blockade? Did Gaza embrace their newfound autonomy, or did they embrace terrorism?

You wrote that Gaza was 'under' Hamas. Why did you miss out the part about Hamas being voted in?

You mentioned the Israeli offensives, did they come out of the blue or were they a response to the indiscriminate heavy shelling of Israeli towns by Gaza's elected government?

About the 'open air prison', and economic hardships, pray tell what happened to the billions (with a b) of dollars in aid Gaza received from the USA, Qatar and others. Is it Israel's fault that there was widespread corruption within the elected government of Gaza?

As to the blockade, if it's only the evil Zionist regime, why did Egypt seal off its border? Could it perhaps have something to do with the proliferation of terrorism within Gaza? Just maybe?

And in conclusion, for years we've heard how life in Gaza is so terrible. Yet once the current war started - once again, by the elected government of Gaza - and Gazans really began suffering the consequences of their actions, we find out it's all been a lie. Suddenly we hear all about the aspiring poets, doctors, lawyers who once enjoyed their freedom and prosperity.

We are shown pictures of before and after, with before being beautiful villas and luxury malls. We are told of thriving businesses and high end restaurants that once graced the streets of Gaza.

It seems Gazans didn't have it so bad at all. Now if only they would have focused their energy and resources on flourishing rather than futilely attempting to destroy Israel.

But enough about what could have been and the consequences of Gaza's hateful choices till now, my question is for the present and a very simple one: why don't they surrender?

OP posts:
TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 02:52

@Mikkymik
I only wrote the 1st paragraph, the rest was Google Gemini in answer to tell me the life of an average gazan born in 2000 and how Israel potentially impacted their life.

Mikkymik · 26/08/2025 02:55

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 02:52

@Mikkymik
I only wrote the 1st paragraph, the rest was Google Gemini in answer to tell me the life of an average gazan born in 2000 and how Israel potentially impacted their life.

Well even the first paragraph conveniently ignores that any deaths by Israeli offensives were as a response to indiscriminate rockets fired from Gaza at Israeli towns.

Why don't they surrender now?

OP posts:
TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 03:08

Apologies for posting this in its entirety here from the linked article but i think its very important and very relevant now.

Avi Shlaim wrote this in 2018:

After its unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, Israel turned the area into the biggest open-door prison on Earth. The two hallmarks of Israel’s treatment of Gaza since then have been mendacity and the utmost brutality towards civilians.

On 27 December 2008, Israel launched Operation Cast Lead, pounding the densely populated strip from the air, sea and land for 22 days. It was not a war or even “asymmetric warfare” but a one-sided massacre. Israel had 13 dead; the Gazans had 1,417 dead, including 313 children, and more than 5,500 wounded. According to one estimate 83% of the casualties were civilians. Israel claimed to be acting in self-defence, protecting its civilians against Hamas rocket attacks. The evidence, however, points to a deliberate and punitive war of aggression. Israel had a diplomatic alternative, but it chose to ignore it and to resort to brute military force.

In June 2008 Egypt had brokered a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement that rules Gaza. The agreement called on both sides to cease hostilities and required Israel to gradually ease the illegal blockade it had imposed on the Gaza Strip in June 2007. This ceasefire worked remarkably well – until Israel violated it by a raid on 4 November in which six Hamas fighters were killed. The monthly average of rockets fired from Gaza on Israel fell from 179 in the first half of 2008 to three between June and October.

The story of the missed opportunity to avoid war was told to me by Robert Pastor, a professor of political science at the American University in Washington DC and a senior adviser on conflict resolution in the Middle East at the Carter Center NGO. Here is what Pastor told me over the phone and later confirmed in an email to Dr Mary Elizabeth King, another close associate of President Carter, on 8 December 2013, a month before Pastor’s death.

Pastor met Khaled Mashaal, the Hamas politburo chief, in Damascus in December 2008. Mashaal handed him a written proposal on how to restore the ceasefire. In effect, it was a proposal to renew the June 2008 ceasefire agreement on the original terms. Pastor then travelled to Tel Aviv and met Major General (Ret) Amos Gilad, head of the defence ministry’s political affairs bureau. Gilad promised that he would communicate the proposal directly to defence minister Ehud Barak, and expected to have an answer either that evening or the following day. The next day, Pastor phoned Gilad’s office three times and got no response. Shortly afterwards, Israel launched Operation Cast Lead.

In the email he dictated to his son on his deathbed, Pastor authorised me to publicise this story and to attribute it to him because “it’s an important moment in history that Israel needs to accept because Israel had an alternative to war in December 2008”. It was indeed a critical moment and it conveyed a clear message: if Israel’s real purpose was to protect its civilians, all it needed to do was to follow Hamas’s example by observing the ceasefire.

Israel’s conduct during the first Gaza war was placed under an uncompromising lens by the UN Human Rights Council’s independent fact-finding mission headed by Richard Goldstone, the distinguished South African judge who happened to be both a Jew and a Zionist. Goldstone and his team found that both Hamas and the Israel Defence Forces had committed violations of the laws of war by deliberately harming civilians. The IDF received more severe strictures than Hamas on account of the bigger scale and seriousness of its violations.

The Goldstone team investigated 36 incidents involving the IDF. It found 11 incidents in which Israeli soldiers launched direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcomes; seven where civilians were shot leaving their homes waving white flags; a “direct and intentional” attack on a hospital; numerous incidents where ambulances were prevented from attending to the severely injured; and nine attacks on civilian infrastructure with no military significance, such as flour mills, sewage works, and water wells – all part of a campaign to deprive civilians of basic necessities. In the words of the report, much of this extensive damage was “not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly”.
In conclusion, the 575-page report noted that while the Israeli government sought to portray its operations as essentially a response to rocket attacks in the exercise of the right to self-defence, “the Mission itself considers the plan to have been directed, at least in part, at a different target: the people of Gaza as a whole”. Under the circumstances “the Mission concludes that what occurred in just over three weeks at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009 was a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever-increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.”

The claim that the operation was designed to “terrorise a civilian population” needs underlining. Terrorism is the use of force against civilians for political purposes. By this definition Operation Cast Lead was an act of state terrorism. The political aim was to force the population to repudiate Hamas, which had won a clear majority in the elections of January 2006.

Operation Cast Lead is emblematic of everything that is wrong with Israel’s approach to Gaza. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a political conflict to which there is no military solution. Yet Israel persists in shunning diplomacy and relying on brute military force – and not as a last resort but as a first resort. Force is the default setting. And there is a popular Israeli saying that goes with it: “If force doesn’t work, use more force!”

Operation Cast Lead was just the first in a series of Israeli mini-wars on Gaza. It was followed by Operation Pillar of Defence in November 2012 and Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014. The fancy names given to these operations were fraudulent, dressing up offensive attacks on defenceless civilians and civilian infrastructure in the sanctimonious language of self-defence. They are typical examples of Orwellian double-speak. UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon called the Israeli attack on 1 August 2014 on Rafah, in which a large number of civilians sheltering in UN schools were killed, “a moral outrage and a criminal act”. This description applies equally to Israel’s entire policy of waging war on the inmates of the Gaza prison.

Israeli generals talk about their recurrent military incursions into Gaza as “mowing the lawn”. This operative metaphor implies a task that has to be performed regularly and mechanically and without end. It also alludes to the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians and the inflicting of damage on civilian infrastructure that takes several years to repair.

“Mowing the lawn” is a chilling euphemism but it provides a clue as to the deeper purpose behind Israel’s steadfast shunning of diplomacy and repeated resort to brute military force in response to all manifestations of lawful resistance and peaceful protest on its southern border. Under this grim rubric, there can be no lasting political solution: the next war is always just a matter of time.

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 03:14

Im not going to try to defend what Hamas has done. Hamas have rightfully been universal condemned. I think its important not to conflate Gazan citizens with Hamas.

A Gazan born in 2000 would have had zero agency or influence in who took power after 2005.

I want to see a future peace and dignity for all Israeli and Palestinians civilians.

LimeShaker · 26/08/2025 03:16

Vivi0 · 24/08/2025 21:54

No, it’s not like saying murder happens everyday so what’s the big deal.

All deaths in war are a big deal, whether they are as a result of war crimes, or not.

People dying in war due to military intervention that is not considered a “war crime” isn’t okay either.

So many posters on this board keep repeating “war crimes” as if it means something significant, however, war crimes are symptomatic of every single war.

A poster didn’t even think Russia had carried out war crimes in Ukraine.

What does that say about the discourse around this conflict?

maybe due to the fact that usually in a war each country has an army that can fight each other and defend themselves.Palestine does not have an army and any act they take is viewed as a terrorist attack. Also Isreal have far far greater control of Gaza than two warring countries usually do. Isreal is not the democratic western power in the Middle East that was promised the behaviour of its government and citizens has been inhumane and vile and the world will not forgot the horrors we have seen. Anyone who cared about Isreal would be campaigning for them to stop.

Howseitgoin · 26/08/2025 03:28

Problem is the 'winning' isn't going to end in Gaza. Even if Hamas surrendered & returned all the hostages, it's obvious the West Bank, Lebanon & Iran are next.

Israel isn't going to feel 'safe' until all their perceived threats are eliminated. It's a chronically paranoid country because of a self fulfilling prophecy that Netanyahu admitted to facilitating by enabling the financing of Hamas to prevent a Palestinian state ever being legitimised.

The thing with 'winning' is we all want to win including The West & global South where destabilising the middle east is against everyone's geo political & economic interests.

The battle not the war has only been won for Israel.

EggCustardTartt · 26/08/2025 03:47

There will never be a real compromise. It may be that they just fight it out now to the bitter end or it goes back and forth for the rest of our lifetimes and beyond.

thepariscrimefiles · 26/08/2025 04:17

Mikkymik · 25/08/2025 18:38

You forgot the part where he needs Christian blood.

Ah, I see what you did there. You are accusing me of blood libel. Nice try, but while I view Netanyahu, not as an idealogue but as someone with no morality or conscience who acts purely on self-interest, he has invited into his government right wing religious fanatics such as Ben Gvir and Smotrich who absolutely believe in Greater Israel and want to achieve that aim through this conflict.

Smotrich believes Jews have a divine right to all land that made up biblical Israel. A commitment to expanding the area controlled by Jewish Israelis – both in de facto terms and through legal annexation – runs through his personal and political life.

Smotrich is a self-declared “fascist homophobe” who backed segregated maternity wards separating Jewish and Arab mothers and called for government reprisal attacks on Palestinians.

Ben Gvir embraced extremism so young that Israel’s domestic security forces barred him from serving in the country’s army as a teenager.

By his early 30s he had been convicted of incitement to racism and support for a terrorist organisation.

This is the most right-wing government that Israel has ever had.

My late dad was Jewish and my Jewish grandparents hosted a Jewish child who came to the UK on the Kindertransport so your accusations of blood libel are disgusting and misplaced.

SaltAirAndTheRust · 26/08/2025 06:18

Mikkymik · 26/08/2025 02:55

Well even the first paragraph conveniently ignores that any deaths by Israeli offensives were as a response to indiscriminate rockets fired from Gaza at Israeli towns.

Why don't they surrender now?

Do you think bombing the hospital was okay?

Zonder · 26/08/2025 06:22

And in conclusion, for years we've heard how life in Gaza is so terrible. Yet once the current war started - once again, by the elected government of Gaza - and Gazans really began suffering the consequences of their actions, we find out it's all been a lie. Suddenly we hear all about the aspiring poets, doctors, lawyers who once enjoyed their freedom and prosperity.

What a bizarre paragraph. The two things are not mutually exclusive! I've seen children in abject poverty unable to go to school in Africa have aspirations of being doctors. As for poets - they are often formed in great difficulty!

Zonder · 26/08/2025 06:22

SaltAirAndTheRust · 26/08/2025 06:18

Do you think bombing the hospital was okay?

Good question.

PinkBobby · 26/08/2025 08:57

Montysmoon · 25/08/2025 08:24

But surely you would have supported WW2 if it meant defeating the Nazis? Israel isn’t at war for fun. It is trying to dismantle a terrorist regime so that it can live in peace and not in constant fear of another 7/10. Why is this so hard to grasp??

I’ve written this on another thread so apologies if this sounds very familiar but I don’t understand the reasoning that we must all turn a blind eye to the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli government against the people in Gaza (and the related behaviour in the WB). How dehumanising to them to suggest that their lives don’t matter in the pursuit of Hamas.

A government cutting off aid to people should cause a stir. A government denying starvation that they contributed to should cause a stir. A country weaponising aid should cause a stir. A government killing the largest number of journalists on record should cause a stir. A country dismantling the medical infrastructure that 2m+ people rely on should cause a stir.

Personally, I cannot just accept those things as ‘part of war’, especially because they are putting Israeli people at huge risk of more extremism. If you ignore or minimise the impact of the Israeli attack on normal Palestinians and their homes, you are literally pushing them into the arms of extremism.

I also can’t ignore them as I don’t want any country to see this as acceptable in war. A western democracy modelling to the world that civilians don’t matter in the pursuit of the enemy. People lately seem to have become immune to war crimes: “They always happen!” people chime, as if the impact of each and every one of those crimes isn’t something to feel angry about.

I fully acknowledge that the crimes Hamas have committed are horrendous and they have no place in Gaza. But the approach the Israeli government combined with the rhetoric they use about Gaza/Palestinians is not something I feel comfortable ignoring. They complain about being in the spotlight but if they appeared to be treating the people in Gaza with some humanity or speaking about them with some level of humanity, that spotlight would quickly fade.

The problem is with Israel’s behaviour, not with people calling it out.

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 10:11

CBS in America interviewed GHF whistleblower who said that he was tasked with clearing up human remains mixed with animal remains and putting it on the back of a truck.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNqqYjfs1IA/

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNqqYjfs1IA/

Zonder · 26/08/2025 10:19

Wow. I'm not sure I can watch that.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 10:36

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Weltall · 26/08/2025 10:41

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That's sick.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 10:52

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FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 11:00

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 10:11

CBS in America interviewed GHF whistleblower who said that he was tasked with clearing up human remains mixed with animal remains and putting it on the back of a truck.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNqqYjfs1IA/

I am not often speechless and I know I shouldn’t be surprised at anything the IDF are doing but what on earth is wrong with these people? Do they honestly think killing journalists stops the outside world finding out about these things? Mind you even when the global community does call them out it just carries on anyway.

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 11:01

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This has been discussed on other threads. I heard the same and was curious so I looked into the detail of reports - including the one requested and commissioned by families of those killed on Oct 7.

They never expected it to happened, they didn't prepare for such an event and there are deep systemic institutional failings including arrogant group think.

I think we can see from the way that Israel are carrying out their military campaign and overall strategy that they are not prioritising the future safety of their civilians.

I don't think speculation about Oct 7 is helpful and it is very hurtful for many.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 11:03

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 11:01

This has been discussed on other threads. I heard the same and was curious so I looked into the detail of reports - including the one requested and commissioned by families of those killed on Oct 7.

They never expected it to happened, they didn't prepare for such an event and there are deep systemic institutional failings including arrogant group think.

I think we can see from the way that Israel are carrying out their military campaign and overall strategy that they are not prioritising the future safety of their civilians.

I don't think speculation about Oct 7 is helpful and it is very hurtful for many.

Agreed am I am grateful you took the time to reply with insight however I feel the families of the hostages may well be asking the same questions.

Weltall · 26/08/2025 11:25

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 11:03

Agreed am I am grateful you took the time to reply with insight however I feel the families of the hostages may well be asking the same questions.

Please don't pretend you give a shit about the hostages or their families. The Facebook account you just posted is full of antisemitism.

mouthpipette · 26/08/2025 12:25

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