It's not about genocide but about winning

[Mikkymik]

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

I don't deny that there are many mainly-innocent people in Gaza. But the population cannot be wholly absolved as Hamas was legally voted in to power, albeit a couple of decades ago. And certainly until before the 7 October war, Hamas had a lot of support from the general Gazan population.

But that's my point, while it's absolutely not genocide, it might well be a war crime. But here's the thing, Israel is more than willing for the war to end, and the government of Gaza, ie Hamas, can easily achieve that by surrendering and releasing the remaining hostages.

This is a losing war for Gaza, why not just surrender now before more lives are lost?

Yes Hamas does appear to have a lot of support from the general Gazan population - based on the celebrations after 7/10 and the fact no Gazans have revealed the whereabouts of the hostages.

But - Hamas was voted into power a long time ago (2006) so many Gazans are too young to have voted them into power.

We can't know how many Gazans do support Hamas (& some may just be terrified not to appear to support them). So I prefer to work on the assumption that there are lots of innocent Gazans who don't want to see all Jews in Israel killed, even though their leaders do.

Israels actions in one part of Palestine are of course relevant to its actions in another - it informs of intent which is key to determining genocide.

At most it's ethnic cleansing, not genocide. In truth Israel has a long history of trying to make peace and giving the Palestinians what they ostensibly want in return for peace. But every time the offering was rejected by the Palestinians.

I think there has been a general shift in Israel to the right, where many centrist people who once believed in a two state solution, now realise there is no negotiating with the Palestinians and they'll never be safe with Palestinians within their borders.

A viewpoint, I should add, that isn't entirely unreasonable. But even the hard right in Israel doesn't want the Palestinians dead (aka genocide), they just want them repatriated to other Arab countries where they won't be an existential threat to Israelis.

Exactly! Hamas surrendering seems the logical thing to do and let the courts decide after the war if war crimes were committed and by whom and if what happened should be classified as a war or genocide by the world.

Again West Bank disproves this assertion that Israel just want peace and security.

Would you say the same to Zelenskyy? Some would say Russia "Israel is more than willing for the war to end, and the government of Gaza, ie Hamas, can easily achieve that by surrendering"

"This is a losing war for Gaza, why not just surrender now before more lives are lost?"

Would you say the same? Should people capitulate because they're weaker? Should the stronger always be given licence to do what they like?

I would if it had been Zelensky who initiated the war by trying to invade Russia, committing horrific crimes in the process.

Hamas started the war, now they're losing. Badly. Time to give up.

This did not start on 7/10.

So genocide which is the:

Genocide is violence or actions targeting an entire human group, such as a nation, ethnicity, race, or religious group, with the intent to destroy the group's existence, culture, or identity. Key elements include the destruction of a group's social cohesion, cultural identity, and collective existence, and it is a crime under international law, although perpetrators often deny their genocidal intent.

Intent to destroy a groups existence, culture or identity. Youve just proved yourself wrong - that's genocide!

How will Palestinians have a collective existence if they are driven out to other Arab nations.

Arab is like European - its made up of multiple distinct ethniticies.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

Unlike most people posting on these threads (and the reason why I usually don't) I consider the conflict to be far more complicated than pat one-sided answers.

This statement, however, is legalistic bullshit. What the Israeli government is doing (not Israel) is the deliberate of targetting of people - whether combatants or not - with the intent to kill. You point weapons at people you intend to use those weapons and you intend to kill. 60,000+ Palestinians did not accidentally jump in front of guns or under bombs.

And I can't believe anyone is naive enough to think that no more Palestinians would die - those killed on the West Bank were people uninvolved in Gaza, peacefully living their lives in their homes.

What word you attach to wholesale slaughtering of civilians is irrelevant - and it is disgusting to try to argue such semantics. Hamas were entirely wrong in their attack on civilians and in the taking of hostages. So is the Israeli government. Nothing - absolutely nothing - justifies the wholesale slaughter of innocent men, women and children, or their starvation unto death. A fact which the Israeli government has sadly forgotten in that last 80 years.

There's another of those interesting opinions.

Exactly.

Well said. It certainly is complex.

Israel can open the borders tomorrow and aid agencies will jump in and do what is needed to help civillians and need to be pressured to do that. Collective punishment should never be endorsed. Hamas not surrendering doesn't excuse forced starvation. It's not good enough to say Hamas can end this tomorrow blah blah, that is using civillian lives as bargaining chips and it's just as awful when the Israeli government does it as when Hamas do. Just feed the children.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Legally speaking, the intent element for genocide could also be fulfilled because of what a lot of powerful people in the Israeli government have said about Gaza and Palestinian people. I know people (including myself) have listed these before so I won’t copy and paste.

I also think it’s unfair to try and disregard the West Bank and what is going on there too. The illegal E1 settlement plans that have been confirmed last month should be a huge red flag that Israel isn’t necessarily aiming for peace with Palestinian people. The government make illegal settlements policy, the IDF and police supervise settler violence and arrest Palestinians who are literally fighting for their homes/land - you cannot ignore this when questioning what will become of Gaza.

Stating that this all ends if Hamas surrender is the same as saying this suddenly started on 7/10. Those statements both disregard decades of interactions between the Israeli government and Palestinian people.

If you’re not sure what I’m referring to, here are some examples:
Israel have…
Allowed settler violence (average 4 incidents a day) which has killed Palestinian adults and children
Denied permits for services like electricity and water,
Demolished schools with no plan for the children affected
Prevented building or improvements to schools and medical facilities,
Built roads on Palestinian land and then banned Palestinians from driving on them,
Denied them access to their own olive groves and farmland.
Tried Palestinian children under military court but Israeli children under civil law
The IDF have used schools for military purposes

Dont complain when all the orphaned sons and daughters come looking for vengeance.

The Israeli tactics mean the only strategy that ensures long term peace is genocide. Anything short of that leaves a generation with a score to settle over lost relatives or lost land.

This is what the UN say about the intent element for genocide:

To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.

Has it been proven that Israel intend to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group? Remember that an intention to disperse a group does not count as genocide.

I don't think so.

This is my biggest fear - people with no hope, family, home etc. are exactly the type of people who are vulnerable to radicalism. Israel need to take the future of Palestinian people really seriously because they need to try and end any cycles of extremism. Destroying Hamas is pointless if it’s just replaced by a whole new group of angry, displaced people who think it’s their turn to retaliate after the damage Israel has done to their families, homes, infrastructure etc.

This could (legally speaking) be found on the basis of things senior politicians have said, according to legal experts. That’s the only part of the genocide definition that will be arguable. The actions themselves are clear so it’s just down to intent.

Palestinians haven’t suddenly been radicalised because of the war. They are indoctrinated from birth to hate Israel and Jews. They are taught it in school. Iran’s proxies literally proclaim: ‘death to America, death to Israel, curse to the Jews, victory to Islam’. Fundamentalist Islam doesn’t recognise Israel and wants its complete annihilation. The past 2 years haven’t suddenly brought about this hatred. It has been there since day dot.

At most it's ethnic cleansing

Fair enough, crack on then.

Genuinely what do you call the current going on in Palestine then?