It's not about genocide but about winning

[Mikkymik]

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

So see that as step one.

Now what to do about 2m displaced people who have lost their homes, members of their families (or all of them), some limbs potentially?

What do we do about all the anger and pain that they are feeling? Just pretend it didn’t happen?

What do we do about the feelings they might have about being told they were never starving when they watched their child fade away or the anger they have for the IDF that dropped a bomb on their house or one that took their child’s legs or life, or the IDF who told someone their vulnerable premature baby or relative dying of cancer needed to be evacuated to a field hospital. What do we do about their feelings of wanting to retaliate like Israeli’s felt on 7/10.

If that pain and anger isn’t acknowledged, destroying Hamas was absolutely pointless. We’ll end up with a new group of terrorists wanting to hurt people because they lost everything. That puts more Israeli people at risk and makes this a never ending war.

Why anybody would be "grateful" to Israel for what they are currently doing is deluded. You don't get rid of extremism by being extremist yourself.
All Israel is doing is increasing the number of extremists.

An eye for an eye etc.

Mehmeh22 · Today 20:23

Handing over the hostages will not stop this. Thinking like that is so very simplistic when it is an extremely complex situation.

It is probably worth remembering all of the political prisoners that Israel is currently holding as well.

To be honest, anyone agreeing with the Israeli government tactics is effectively dehumanising Palestinians.

And what exactly do you think they are trying to win? At what cost? Hollow victory if you ask me.

You acknowledge their pain, accept their suffering, replace their terrorist leadership with a new power, have Arab nations help rebuild with the billions of funding they have received, and launch a major deradicalisation programme.

Look how well that kind of talk worked for Afghanistan........

Will the past lessons ever be learnt....

Yes. Exactly.

You can't kill an entire population to make your people safe. You just make it more likely your people will be killed in the future.

Surely this is governing 101. Treat people - all people - like humans who are inherently worthy of respect and dignity. You can't fucking starve them and expect that they'll come around to seeing things your way. That's psychopathic!

Because you can’t / don’t see the bigger picture of the threat of radical Islam and Islamic terrorism, which is a major concern for the West. If Iran has nuclear capabilities, and the Iranian regime has publicly stated its hatred towards the US and its intent to destroy Israel, then quite frankly we are screwed.

Even so, starving and bombing a population of people is not going to work.

We're screwed either way.

Kill an entire population? The population of Gaza has risen over the past 10 years. So much for a ‘genocide’.

Just because it is difficult to answer or you don't want to answer it doesn't mean the question doesn't make sense

???The whole world population has grown over the last 10 years. Doesn't mean Isreal isn't attempting to kill Palestinians.

Terrorists aren't all psychopaths. Terrorists are made, not born.

Are you serious?

Yes it has! Of course it has. It’s war.

What does war look like to you?

Genuinely what do you call the current going on in Palestine then?

Perhaps you can translate this sentence then.

Great - sound like we’re in agreement about step 1 and 2.

Now step 3. Or maybe 2b.

• remove far right members of Israeli government who have made disturbing/dehumanising comments about Palestinians
• Allow Palestinians to rule themselves including allowing free and fair elections. Do not force a government upon them.
• collaborate with Palestinians on security
• remove WB settlements and take a hard line on settler violence
• Allow Palestinians in the West Bank to build, farm, move, meet etc without need for Israeli permits
• Use education to deal with racism/segregation re Israeli Arabs
• Try Palestinian children under civil law not military law (like Israeli children)

I’m sure there are more but my point is that Israel also need to reflect on what they are doing in order to actually tackle the problem of extremism. That means removing extremists from their government, not supporting/condoning/funding terrorism, treating Palestinians as equals and working on issues of racism within their own communities.

Yes, they are. They do that in order to justify the genocide. Previously, they denied it was happening at all.

How would you describe the situation in Palestine right now?

War.

It's actually a war crime. Even in war it shouldn't happen.

I agree with you OP.

I fully accept that Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza.

War crimes are an inevitable outcome of war. They happen in every war. Such is the nature of war, and fighting a war.

It’s not surprising, nor exceptional, and Israel is not an outlier in this respect.

The only exceptional thing in this conflict, is that Hamas are also carrying out war crimes in Gaza.

I completely reject that Israel is committing genocide. Putting aside the fact that people have been throwing “genocide” at Israel for decades to try make it stick, I don’t believe this conflict is anywhere near to the threshold of genocide, nor is the intent there.

Israel paused fighting to allow Gazan children to be vaccinated against Polio, for fucks sake.

The language used is designed to be deliberately inflammatory, taking words of justice, and using them as weapons.

Look at how quickly people have thrown out the definition of the word “hostage”, to now refer to detainees held by Israel as hostages. This is because Hamas took actual hostages on 7/10, and people can’t be having that used against “the cause”.

War crimes happen in every war.

Can you name a war where war crimes weren’t committed?

Radical Islam is empowered by an Israel which occupies Palestine and is more of a threat to the West as Israel takes more land and power from Palestine. The best way to reduce the threat of Radical Islam is for Israel to agree a peace deal and removal of its control from OPT and Israel to stop attacking and occupying its neighbours (it also occupies parts of Syria).

Israel are exaggerating this radical islam narrative to give them the opportunity to have greater control and expand the territory they control.

Oh no I must have translated it incorrectly as you got the answer wrong this time! Silly me

There have been many Islamic terror attacks in the West.

Israel wasn’t a driving force behind any of them.