Israel murders another 15 people queieng for food

[anotherside]

“Israel intensifies bombing of Gaza, killing 89 Palestinians in 24 hours
At least 15 people queueing for food among the deaths, and five people reported to have died from starvation” - Guardian

And many of them children no doubt. When will this sick government stop its mass murder of the Palestinian people?

Former top Biden administration officials Jack Lew and David Satterfield reveal that “neither the IDF nor the UN ever shared evidence with us — or asserted to us privately — that Hamas was physically diverting US-funded goods provided by the World Food Programme or international nongovernmental organizations.”
“Furthermore, there was no evidence of substantial Hamas diversion of any major assistance funded by the UN or nongovernmental organizations (NGOs),” write Lew, who served as US ambassador to Israel, and Satterfield, who served as US envoy for Mideast humanitarian issues, in a joint op-ed in Foreign Affairs.
Israel has insisted on the contrary and used the assertion of widespread, systemic Hamas theft of aid to justify the creation of the controversial Gaza Humanitarian Foundation in May.

It is telling and sad to see the pro-Israeli group on here ultimately resort to quasi religious tropes linked to a right to live in a parcel of land not occupied by them for over 1000 years. This is the heart of the Israeli narrative, this land was our, this land is ours and we will take it. The irony in this is what empowers Israel is America, a nation occupying the historic lands of the native Americans and encouraging the Israeli government to invade its neighbours.

The world needs to recognise the misinformation from these people for what it is - through ignorance or prejudice they are supporting genocide.

Who had sovereignty over the land in 1918?

Who had sovereignty over the land from
1919?

Who was given the majority of the land in 1921?

What was the Balfour declaration?

Why didn’t the Arabs, who already had 73% of the land for their own State, want to split the remaining 27% with the Jews?

The region of Palestine had no Jewish population before 1948?

Did the term Palestinians refer to both Jews and Arabs in the region before 1948?

If you can answer all those questions truthfully (google will help), you’ll see how misinformed and ignorant your post was.

The biggest irony in your post is that the Hamas and many Palestinians believe that ALL the land is Muslim land.

Please point out these quasi religious tropes you speak of and we can discuss them?

Jews have lived in the portion of land we now call Israel for 1000's of years. They haven't always been sovereign, and they haven't always been a majority, and they've frequently been oppressed, but they've always been there.

You can easily look this up yourself.

It is interesting to see that the defence of genocide is based of statements that go back 1000 years or more. It is also important not to conflate religion and state, Many religions exits across borders, in fact, most do. To declare that Jewish people lived here in the past and present and therefore the land is Israeli is to show the fallacy in the narrative from Israel. State and religion should never be linked, those who do, do so for personal gain, The fact that the defence of genocide is reliant on blurring the lines on state and religion is to show the error in the logic.

Do you feel the same about the Maldives and the 56 other Muslim States, including Jordan. Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, Bangladesh and Pakistan?

There is no defence of genocide in Gaza because there isn’t one.

This was in Haaretz today too:

Meanwhile, the World Food Program reported last week that 99 percent of the trucks it managed to bring into the Gaza Strip through the crossings with Israel in July were looted on their way to warehouses. According to the agency, this represents 1,002 of 1,012 trucks, and the vast majority of them were looted by hungry residents, not by armed men. UN officials say that as long as residents do not have minimum food security and the knowledge that they will be able to obtain food, it is impossible to restore social order in the Gaza Strip and prevent looting.

Why would they:
Because they have reached at least stage 8 on this process.

www.genocidewatch.com/tenstages

And I mean that in a totally honest way.
I think people were killed because their killers didn’t think not to.
I appreciate you find that a shocking or even outrageous opinion to have, but it is equally shocking and outrageous to me that your mind is utterly closed to examining any narrative other than your own.

My guess is that it is even deeper with you and if they said “tensions run high, and it is necessary to kill a few to keep the crowd in order” you would go “yeah, that’s probably right down on the ground”.

Why do you believe Hamas?
I don’t. Truth exists independently of both HAMAS and the IDF. Surely you can see both have gains to make by lying?
This is where we use our brains to work out which version is most likely.
Were the people in the queue shot accidentally or deliberately? If it was accidental, how did that accident happen, and what steps are the IDF taking to make sure it doesn’t happen again?

Youre not making much sense really.
I'm not defending Israel on religious grounds. Statements that go back 1000's of years? What does that even mean?

I'm just pointing out your lies and misinformation, saying Jewish people haven't lived there for 1000 years is simply untrue.

The archeological proof of deep historical Jewish roots to the land is there for everyone to see. Personally I don't give 2 shits about religion. I do care about history and truth though.

So I'll try one more time with you-

Where has someone used a quasi religious trope?
Why do you say the Jewish people haven't lived there for 1000 years when they have?
And what's this fallacy in the Israeli narrative you mention?

I did not say that Jewish people had not lived there for 1000s of years. What I did point out is that until the end of WW2 the area had been ruled by the Ottomans and then the British. The point being made was that the partition of the area to reinstate Israel was already sensitive and then made worse by Israel grabbing additional land through violence. This violence led to resistance and eventually - Hamas.

What was chilling was a Simon Reeve documentary on the religions in the eastern med. Generally they were all pretty similar, citing bits that where a bit silly, but the bond and support was a benefit. This was the case with traditional Jewish families in Israel, it was when he met some American's who had relocated to Israel that it got scary. All the other interviewees accepted the right of the others to exist and they wanted to live together in peace. The American Israelis wanted the extermination of the other religions on the grounds of them being false and impure.

It is this attitude that is driving the extermination of Gaza.

I’m going to be honest and say that I read your post from yesterday at 16:02 (in particular) and 16:10 as Quasi Religious tropes.

I think others will take that reading too, that the presence of [religious item] from the past is justification for political actions today.

If that is not the inference we’re expected to draw, then what is it that you’re actually saying.

I'm simply pointing out that there existence of archeological remains that date back thousands of years, to before the Arab / Islamic conquest of the entire area, makes a powerful statement about the strength of Jewish historical roots to this specific part of land.

I should go further and say that I dont believe that justifies Israels current behavior, and I never have said that. But I do believe it justifies their rights to their homeland which the pp questioned.

"is telling and sad to see the pro-Israeli group on here ultimately resort to quasi religious tropes linked to a right to live in a parcel of land not occupied by them for over 1000 years. This is the heart of the Israeli narrative, t"

This is where you said what youre denying you said.

Jewish people have been on that parcel of land for 1000's of years.

You gave a potted history that made no reference to Jewish roots to the land.

I find the Jewish roots to the land to be a central pillar in the argument for Zionism. Zionism doesn't have to be religious although obviously it can be.

I believe Palestinians also have roots to the land and this is evidenced in genetic studies. They both have the right to be there in my opinion.

It sounded to me like you were writing the Jewish rights out of it, and thats why I pushed back with my talk of what's under the Haram al Sharif.

Ah, I see where you are coming from, thank you for calling that out. I did not mean to suggest that the Jewish people had not been living in the region for a 1000 years or longer. What I was thinking, but not being clear on was the state of Israel itself. It is the creation and then expansion of this that is the cause of the issues.

I'd argue it's the refusal of Palestinians to accept Jewish rights to at least some of the land and their insistence that the whole of it is rightfully Muslim that is the cause of the issues.

In essence the refusal to share.

And I'd argue that the Palestinian cause is more ideologically religious than the Israeli.

Do you not think the state of Israel should have been created then? I almost missed that bit!!

That's where we disagree. The Palestinians have been subjected to persecution and murder at the hands of the Israeli government for decades. This is naturally going to radicalise some. The modern state of Israel was imposed upon the region, then expanded aggressively. What would you think of a nation that steals your land, murders your people, bombs your cities. Modern Israel has caused this problem and must seek to solve it, not through extermination, never in history has the attempted extermination of a people led to peace.

So you don't think Israel has any right to be there?

You do realise they were radical about Israel not having any right to be there at all the moment the state was created? Before Israel was even 1 year old, before any oppression or killings by Israel, still Arab Palestinians in the area believed there was no place for a Jewish state at all. How do you fit that into your narrative?

I’m interested too, is that what you think @VintageMan?

There is no independent truth in Gaza outside of Hamas, the IDF, the military experts and journalists who have been in Gaza (neither of the latter agree with your analysis)

If you think is there is any other independent truth, can you tell me where it comes from?

Here’s a tip - doctors see injuries but don’t know where they came from/whether they were deliberate targets.

Considering the allegation that a hospital in Gaza refused to treat 20 Palestinian aid workers injured by Hamas (with more murdered) and left them for dead in the hospital courtyard, because they worked for the GHF, they are also almost certainly compromised by Hamas.

It is interesting that in a thread about the IDF killing Palestinians, you avoid discussing this and go to the rhetoric of the Israeli government, bringing up threats to their existence.

I have not said anything on this aspect. Israel exists and one cannot rewrite history. I do understand that if my family lived in a country that was part of an empire I would feel oppressed and want freedom. I am not sure if seeing my country partitioned would ever be without resistance, when in history has an imperialist power done something like that and it been popular. Had Israel kept to its borders, not grabbed more land than it was given, and continues to do so then I suspect the area would be a lot more peaceful than it is now.

More pertinently for the thread, what is your view on the killings, will you follow the cyber thing and declare them not occurring, or do you agree that killing people looking for food is a crime?

How much more land do you think Israel has ‘grabbed’.

What country was partitioned?

Whose country was it?

What was the name of it?

I note you never respond to my replies to your posts, although you obviously read them and they must cause you some consternation hence you describing me as the ‘cyber thing’.

Perhaps you could be brave enough to respond to me directly instead of resorting to childish name calling?

This is a forum for adults after all, and it is a discussion with opposing views. Although mine is in the minority obviously, but no less valid than anyone else’s.

If an opposing view offends you that much you have to resort to dehumanising a female stranger to a ‘thing’, perhaps you should consider why you are on a discussion forum,

Firstly I apologise that I could not recall your full tag and that you feel devalued by the term used - also I was not aware of your gender, it was agnostic to that.

In answer to your questions

• Palestine was partitioned in 1947
• It was 'ruled' by the British and before that the Ottomans, does this mean they own it - is another debate.
• The increase in size is about 45% rising from about 15,000kmsq to its current size of about 22,000kmsq. Most of the increase came from the Arab part of Palestine itself, with the capture and annex of the Golan heights from Syria and East Jerusalem from Jordan.

I am sorry that you feel offended or on edge because your views are in the minority here. It cannot be nice to be in the minority and feel that every challenge is personal, I hope you understand that it is not. I am sure it is not the intention of anyone on here to silence minority voices. It is an emotive topic to see slaughter without end and feel powerless to stop it.