Many pro-Palestinians DO actually support Hamas

[ConscientiousObserver]

There I said it.

Obviously they won’t come out and admit it, for fear of exposing themselves as supporters of evil, and also because they worry that they may be traced as it is supposedly illegal to support Hamas, as a proscribed terrorist group.

The evidence is all there -

The blind belief in the blatant Hamas propaganda which defies sense and logic.

The demonising descriptive language used to describe Israel.

The insistence that a war Israel didn’t start justifies Israeli and Jewish people around the work being persecuted, attacked and even murdered.

The protests against Israel but not Hamas who actually started the war.

The complete lack of interest or outrage in the Israeli hostages who actually included children and and a baby.

The calls for immediate ceasefire since the war started with no calls for Hamas to surrender.

The complete lack of accountability for Hamas and Palestinians in general.

I cannot fathom that anyone with a sane mind would support evil, barbaric murderers and rapists who also actively want to get their own civilians killed, and kill them themselves, so can we assume that for these people, their hatred of Israel and the Jewish people is greater than their care for human life as a whole.

A genuine question.

Luckily, MN deletes the posts, which call posters supporters of child murder. I've had several twisting my posts and MN have been quick to act.

Support for Hamas is directly fuelling this war to continue
I would like to think that any person experiencing undescribable suffering through torture, being starvation, captivity, fear and the rest stops to care at one point whose fault it is and only hope that the torture ends immediately. Surely your focus must changed completely. When you see your children dying one after the other, when you are locked and beaten to death, you just want at that point for all of it to be over rather than engage in political debates. Survival takes over.

Only people like us, in the safety of our safe home can enjoy the luxury of deciding who is evil and who are victims.

The war could end with Hamas surrendering and releasing the hostages. It could have ended a year ago or more.

Why do the Western pro-Palestinians seem to think that is so impossible that it’s not even worth mentioning?

How many times have we seen ‘but Hamas’ as a sarcastic response to any poster who mentions it on here?

Do you not think Hamas is well aware of the response to their well funded and orchestrated propaganda machine?

If pro-Palestinians had actually wanted Hamas to surrender, because that would have been the best outcome for Palestinian civilians and children immediately and for their future obviously, why haven’t they been as vocal in calling for it as they are about Israel being evil and being to blame for the war?

The idea that the war “could have ended” if Hamas had just surrendered ignores quite a bit of context.

Plenty of people, Palestinian and otherwise, have condemned Hamas. But the point many are trying to make is this: it’s entirely possible to oppose Hamas and hold Israel accountable for policies that have devastated civilian life in Gaza long before October 7th.

Demanding that Western pro-Palestinians should focus on pressuring Hamas also seems odd when they have no influence over them. Do we expect Israeli citizens to topple Netanyahu in order to earn the right to grieve or protest? Do we only support Ukrainian civilians if they loudly disavow all Ukrainian military decisions?

People say “but Hamas” sarcastically because it’s become a rhetorical deflection- used to shut down any discussion of mass suffering, aid obstruction, or disproportionate force. It’s not that people don’t think Hamas is responsible for anything. It’s that they’re exhausted by the refusal to acknowledge multiple causes of civilian death, and the framing that insists only one side deserves scrutiny.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMyeeEENFzh/?igsh=MTYzcjk4bDdzamxhZA==

This is… horrifying. Even if this was meant as satire, it says a lot about how dehumanised Palestinians have become in mainstream Israeli discourse. Imagine saying this about any group of children and not being instantly reviled.

Why do the Western pro-Palestinians seem to think that is so impossible that it’s not even worth mentioning?
You're talking politics and religion, I'm talking human day to day life outside of religion and politics.

Ultimately, it comes down to that. How many people, and which people are truly prepared to suffer hell on earth for their religious and political beliefs?

Isn't there a time when it's significance becomes meaningless when you are are prepared to eat rats and drink filthy water that you know will make you ill and see your children dying in pain? Or does your faith in religion and politics turn you in model martyrs who will accepting the worse suffering for the cause?

That was a great discussion, especially the bit about the use of smart phones to document a war in real time,

Shocking that people dismiss Andrew Fox and his military operation knowledge because he is pro-Israel. My takeaway from that is it’s because he understands what’s going on although TBF going on the MSM’s narrative, he’d probably have a bigger platform and more media interest if he was anti-Israel.

Horrific what he said about the massacres of the Druze in Syria as well. Just as bad as Oct 7th but still people protested about Israel getting involved.

No, people refer to the but Hamas rhetoric because it's always only briefly acknowledging what they did. This is the absolute underpinning of what's going on in this conflict. You can believe that this all started with Israel's oppression, I don't. Arabs do not want Jews to exist and Hamas are getting a heck of a lot more covert support to ensure their mission is completed. That includes arab nations, who don't want to deal with palestine but share the Muslim Brotherhood ideology of Islam ruling the Middle East. Judaism is in its way.

I understand where you’re coming from, but it seems we fundamentally disagree on where the responsibility lies for how this conflict escalated.

To me, millions of people have seen footage and read reports showing how decades of Israeli occupation, blockade, and settlement expansion laid the groundwork for the current humanitarian catastrophe. That isn’t “just briefly acknowledging what happened”- it’s acknowledging a prolonged reality that no ceasefire could erase overnight.

I condemn Hamas unequivocally. Their October 7th attacks were horrific and unjustifiable.
But saying “Arabs don’t want Jews to exist” isn’t a serious analysis- it’s a sweeping generalisation that veers into hate speech. It erases the diversity of opinion across the Arab world and replaces it with a dehumanising caricature. That doesn’t help any meaningful conversation or peace.

If you’re claiming that Hamas has covert backing from Muslim Brotherhood-aligned actors, fair enough- but back it up with credible sources. Broad claims about whole ethnic or religious groups “not wanting Jews to exist” just inflame and oversimplify. They don’t lead us anywhere useful.

Do you have anything to say about the video I’ve shared, and Israeli’s deep seated attitudes towards Palestinians?

I broadly agree with you OP, but not in the context of the current starvation crisis.

I'm really quite far to the left of the Labour Party - very enthused by Jeremy Corbyn initially, but my eyes were opened when his defence of that mural re-emerged. I've seen some instances of the most overt and hateful types of antisemitism, but it has been truly shocking to me to realize how widespread the more insidious forms of antisemitism are.

The willingness to conflate Jews with Israel is an obvious one, the use of Hamas-type chants (from the river...globalize...) is another, misuse of "Zionism" as a term, revisionist history, etc etc. I've written at length about this in other contexts and challenged folks - friends included - in person and other non-Mumsnet contexts.

I actually think that large parts of the Pro-Pelstine movement in the UK is more aligned with Hamas than with moderate Palestinians (sometimes deliberately, more often ignorantly), in a way that hurts the peace process - and centres Western upset over on-the-ground suffering.

All of that notwithstanding, I remain disturbed by how the situation in Gaza has developed over time, and profoundly so in terms of food insecurity. I believe there is widespread starvation, largely attributable to Israeli policy, and that it is deliberate.

The uncritical support for Israel from some, on that sole issue, and how it has been expressed on here recently, has ranged from concerning to appalling.

Thanks- this is something I’ve noticed and has definitely given me something to read up on/some pause for thought.

You can believe that this all started with Israel's oppression, I don't
And that's exactly how the world is divided depending on all the factors that influences our beliefs. The same discussion is taking place in every part of the world, has done so for centuries and will continue to do so until.....well at the moment, noone knows.

You can be the most educated and knowledgeable on the matter on MN, or think you are, whichever, but there will be similar people with as much education and knowledge, maybe here on MN or the public domain who will think totally different to you.

You can quote a very experienced rational and credible person, but you can be sure someone could quote another figure with the same qualities and credentials who think the exact opposite.

In these instances, it's much interesting to hear equally from both sides than to try to convince others that they are wrong and they know better than them.

Credible evidence that Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a8076bfe5274a2e8ab504ab/53163_Muslim_Brotherhood_Review_-_PRINT.pdf

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas

millions of people have seen footage and read reports showing how decades of Israeli occupation, blockade, and settlement expansion laid the groundwork for the current humanitarian catastrophe

This worries me. That Westerners who have never given a shit about ME politics are suddenly so "well informed".

Thanks for providing this- I’ll have a look through it.

Your bias is clearly showing in your post. What evidence do you need that arab countries don't want jews to exist? Do you know the full history of the region, including how it were jewish and Christians persecuted and dehumanised centuries ago? You want your version to be true because to believe otherwise wouldn't sit comfortably.

Funny how these westerners are never allowed to see footage of Hamas setting booby traps and tunnels in entrances to public places, such as schools and hospitals. Hamas let westerners see what the terrorist scum want westerners to see.

What's your source? Many people are against the Israeli government's forced starvation, genocide and settlers stealing land. It doesn't make them Hamas supporters.

Your response is a perfect example of what I was talking about: rather than addressing the dehumanisation in the present, it shifts focus to centuries-old history as justification.

Yes, I’m aware of historical complexities- persecution has existed in many directions throughout the region. But guess what? That STILL doesn’t excuse or justify man-made starvation (including the starvation of nearly 1 million children)…which is a war crime.

Pointing out systemic abuses by a government doesn’t mean denying the pain or persecution others have faced historically.

You also still haven’t answered the question I asked: what do you make of the video I shared, and the attitudes it reflects? Because it seems easier for you to accuse me of bias than to actually engage with the dehumanisation of the Palestinians by Israel.

I'm not looking at anything that negates dehumanising of one race, while asserting that dehumanising another is taking place. You don't even see your hypocrisy. However, your comment about this merely being historical, goes some way to explaining the ignorance around what's happening. You are looking at this in isolation of relevant historical facts, which have steered the region to where it is now.

ETA this man made starvation is also a prop in the scene which has been set.

You keep accusing me of hypocrisy, but you’ve yet to actually engage with the content I shared- or acknowledge the very real and well-documented dehumanisation Palestinians face right now. That’s not bias: that’s witnessing.

I haven’t denied Jewish historical suffering or Arab antisemitism where it exists. I’ve explicitly condemned Hamas. But saying “Arab countries don’t want Jews to exist” is inflammatry, not an honest analysis. It flattens history, ignores the diversity of Arab-Jewish coexistence across centuries, and erases the fact that several Arab nations have diplomatic ties with Israel today.

Your refusal to acknowledge Israeli racism or war crimes, while insisting that Arab antisemitism is the defining feature of this conflict, shows a selective moral lens.

Man-made starvation, siege, and mass civilian deaths are not “props”- they are crimes affecting real children, in real time.

And if your position can’t handle a basic request- to comment on a video showing casual genocidal language toward Palestinians - why?

This isn’t about who has suffered more. It’s about who has the power now, and how that power is being used. It is you who is refusing to look at that honestly.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-leaked-email-that-blows-apart-the-bbcs-impartiality-claims-over-gaza/

I think the impartiality has deepened over the years - the article above demonstrates this.

There needs to be a lot more reasoned debate around this complex issue. The bias on some of the threads is blatantly anti Semitic, but I say with a small A as I don't think they have any insight into their own perspectives.

There are recent reports that most of the aid send by UN are being intercepted by Hamas.
Videos of the trucks commandeered by Hamas being driven at high speed though Gaza.

Then they sell it to the Gazans.

Who has the power now? Who was using funds and resources to maintain the fight, rather than make a two state solution work? Who was helping another race to get work permits and improve their lives? Who broke a ceasefire to carry out a slaughter? Oh, I'm looking at things honestly. I'm just not seeing things as simply as you. Palestinians- the genuine civilians - cannot win in this battle. Their fate is not all at the hands of Israel. Hamas do not want peace. The community, which supports them, does not want peace. Hamas won't let their own people have access to food without a heavy price. It serves their purpose to see starvation and let the world have access to selective commentary. You cannot reason with them.

The truth doesn't sit well. Good to see you back x