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Conflict in the Middle East

Do people fully support Palestine?

1000 replies

Dawk · 11/02/2025 20:56

I read this article and the scales fell from my eyes a bit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives.

I am appalled by the destruction and loss of life in Gaza, but having read this article I can’t understand why support for Palestine isn’t more caveated. Why are people waving flags and supporting Gaza so unconditionally? When you look at the polling described in the article it seems fairly clear that many/most don’t actually want peace unless it follows the complete destruction of Israel.

For me it’s a bit like supporting Iran. I would never wave the Iranian flag around because of what the country stands for. In this case I am horrified by the scale of destruction wrought by the IDF so support Palestine completely in that respect but I’d never wave the flag or chant the slogans.

If you consider yourself ‘pro-Palestine’, what do you think of the ideology described in the article?

Amid the ceasefire wrangling, how popular is Hamas in Gaza now?

The group still projects a powerful presence but, after all the damage, it will need to divert blame if the truce collapses

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
SharonEllis · 12/02/2025 12:40

Adropinthepond · 12/02/2025 09:54

I'm sure the three billion in aid that Israel recieves annually from the US must go a long way.

That money is almost all military aid, used primarily to buy american military equipment and to suppport the Iron dome. The US gives far more in non-military aid to Palestinians than non-military aid to Israel.

converseandjeans · 12/02/2025 12:48

@SallyWD

I think there will be incredibly rich people in Saudi, Qatar, UAE but Israel probably has more money per capita. I think there are rich individuals in some of those countries. But not sure about social care, health service, education for the general population?

licensing.visualcapitalist.com/product/gdp-per-capita-in-the-middle-east-by-country/

converseandjeans · 12/02/2025 12:51

Link wasn't working - here is data per capita.

Do people fully support Palestine?
Peacecanbe · 12/02/2025 12:51

TheEightBall · 12/02/2025 12:22

It's interesting how some people are only now waking up to the reality. Media coverage has a lot to answer for. I believe this is the first article the guardian has published that indicates the ordinary Palestinian people are not all victims and oppressed and were 'forced' to vote in hamas, when the polls show a very different picture.

And yet we are asked to remember not all Israelis support Netanyahu, despite them actually having recent democratic elections?

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 12:53

@1dayatatime if you refuse to see what's happening to Gaza for what it is, there's no point discussing this with you. If you think what is happening to the people there is reasonable and you continue to support Israel after everything we've seen there's just no point.

TheEightBall · 12/02/2025 13:03

Peacecanbe · 12/02/2025 12:51

And yet we are asked to remember not all Israelis support Netanyahu, despite them actually having recent democratic elections?

I'm responding to the question in the thread... I'm referring to the narrative that has been persistently pushed that Palestinians are powerless, without autonomy, victims. I don't think the same has ever been said for ordinary Israelis, who are generally vilified as ' evil ' and without conscience. The media coverage has never been balanced, hence my surprise at the guardian (!) Of all ' reputable ' sources choosing to publicise their article today showing a very different view.

Adamante · 12/02/2025 13:17

Indeed OP. It has been an excruciating mix of disgust and embarrassment reading the blind support here on MN since 10/7. Not to mention the marches every weekend for months and the university campus protests where Jews were terrorised and excluded. Absolutely shameful and I am relieved in my own critical thinking skills that I was never taken in for a moment. I did sometimes question could my stance be wrong given the iron clad MN support for “Palestine” <<cough>> HAMAS! But the more I read the more horrified I was and totally baffled by the assertions that Israel were so evil and brutal in their response to the barbarity of 10/7. The celebration and excitement at the South Africa position (that bastion of peace and human rights 🙄) was completely laughable, same with Ireland. Thank goodness people appear to be waking up, even The Guardian!

Liv999 · 12/02/2025 13:17

LetThereBeLove · 12/02/2025 11:59

And I believe his word, not. Why doesn't he offer Palestinian refugees a safe haven in Ireland so that they can rebuild their lives?

Oh Lord..because he, like the rest of the world apart from Israel and the US, knows that the Palestinians belong in their ancestral home and always will and doesn't engage in any nonsense about ethnic cleansing

Liv999 · 12/02/2025 13:20

Katiesaidthat · 12/02/2025 12:02

This trope is starting to get my goat. And I say this who doesn´t give a fig about the Palestinian cause. But even I can see this is wrong on all levels. Palestinians belong in their ancestral land, not Ireland, Spain or Timbuctu!

And YET some people can't seem to accept this...

1dayatatime · 12/02/2025 13:26

@Liv999

"Oh Lord..because he, like the rest of the world apart from Israel and the US, knows that the Palestinians belong in their ancestral home and always will and doesn't engage in any nonsense about ethnic cleansing"

So are you against the idea of Palestinians voluntarily seeking asylum in another country (unlike say Afghans or Iranians or Syrians) and that they must remain in Gaza whether they want to or not?

TinklySnail · 12/02/2025 13:32

Peacecanbe · 12/02/2025 12:51

And yet we are asked to remember not all Israelis support Netanyahu, despite them actually having recent democratic elections?

Yeah but a lot of of us don’t support Starmer and he was elected democratically.

1dayatatime · 12/02/2025 13:32

@Lalaloveya

"@1dayatatime if you refuse to see what's happening to Gaza for what it is, there's no point discussing this with you. If you think what is happening to the people there is reasonable and you continue to support Israel after everything we've seen there's just no point"

I can see the level of destruction and deaths in Gaza as well as anyone else. I don't think what has happened to their homes and towns as "reasonable" so I can understand why some may wish to leave.

What I don't understand is why you would want to prevent Palestinians voluntarily seeking asylum in another country in order to obtain stability, peace and prosperity for themselves and their families. When at the same time it is acceptable for Afghans, Syrians, Ukrainians and Iranians to seek asylum.

Are Palestinians asylum seekers somehow less valid than Afghans, Syrians, Ukrainians or Iranians?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 13:34

I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives.

? I read the article you linked and it stated the exact opposite of what you are saying:

”But experts point out that the widespread presence of Hamas does not imply extensive support. The level of control is not a measure of popularity,” said Hugh Lovatt, a specialist in Palestinian politics at the European Council on Foreign Relations. “We have polling data over the years and, though there are always caveats, there is still a consistent historical trend and that is that support for Hamas tends to hover around the mid-30s in percentage terms.”

So supra majority (two thirds or more) of Gazans do not support Hamas.

“asked people in the territory if they supported “very extreme actions” to protect and defend Palestine. This was on a continuous scale and roughly 25% were above the midpoint in support of extreme violence, so a minority,”

So 75% of Gazans do not support violence or sacrifice of lives.

”When asked what would be a “realistic and acceptable” ending to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, just under half of the population said some division of territory between Israel and Palestine, either along the pre-1967 borders or those suggested by the UN in 1947, while slightly more than half preferred a dissolution of Israel, with a single Palestinian state under Islamic law the most preferred solution of all.”

*So similar divide to Brexit vote, just under half prefer two state solution, just over half prefer a single state solution. There is divided opinion on the solution to the conflict everywhere you poll, so this isn’t surprising.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 13:41

BaMamma · 12/02/2025 00:43

I think if I saw that my leaders were able to fully feed themselves, and keep their uniforms nice and clean, I'd be fucking angry about the conditions they were keeping me in.

The article OP linked indicates two thirds of Palestinans don’t support Hamas, so it’s fair to say perhaps even most of them are “fucking angry” at Hamas.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 13:46

crumpet · 12/02/2025 05:46

What happened in 1967? Oh yes, that was when an Arab coalition attacked Israel in the 6 day war.

The 6 day war was started by Israel attacking Egypt.
”On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities.[30] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly all of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. After some initial resistance, Nasser ordered an evacuation of the Sinai Peninsula; by the sixth day of the conflict, Israel had occupied the entire Sinai Peninsula.[39] Jordan, which had entered into a defense pact with Egypt just a week before the war began, did not take on an all-out offensive role against Israel, but launched attacks against Israeli forces to slow Israel's advance.[40] On the fifth day, Syria joined the war by shelling Israeli positions in the north.[41]”

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 13:51

Dawk · 12/02/2025 08:30

The thing is, the settlers and extremists in Israel are a small minority (albeit one with outsized power atm due to the coalition). Most Israelis are open to peaceful co-existence with Palestinians. It’s a small minority who are motivated by religious zealotry, not over half the population.

If you take the views of the Gazan population into account it seems hopelessly naive to think that if the Israeli aggression stops, the Palestinians will stop too.

A pity you cannot see that pollings of 25% in favour of “extreme measures” are also a minority, instead of the majority like you have been claiming. You haven’t even acknowledged that “extreme measures” might not even involve violence.

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 13:53

1dayatatime · 12/02/2025 13:32

@Lalaloveya

"@1dayatatime if you refuse to see what's happening to Gaza for what it is, there's no point discussing this with you. If you think what is happening to the people there is reasonable and you continue to support Israel after everything we've seen there's just no point"

I can see the level of destruction and deaths in Gaza as well as anyone else. I don't think what has happened to their homes and towns as "reasonable" so I can understand why some may wish to leave.

What I don't understand is why you would want to prevent Palestinians voluntarily seeking asylum in another country in order to obtain stability, peace and prosperity for themselves and their families. When at the same time it is acceptable for Afghans, Syrians, Ukrainians and Iranians to seek asylum.

Are Palestinians asylum seekers somehow less valid than Afghans, Syrians, Ukrainians or Iranians?

I haven't said that, so you can stop asking me.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 13:56

LetThereBeLove · 12/02/2025 09:08

Did you miss the images from 7 October 2023?

The media in the UK never publishes images of terrorist attacks or rocket damage in Israel. I have to look at foreign news sites to see them.

That’s not true. There were many publications of images of the devastation from Oct 7th in the U.K.

Liv999 · 12/02/2025 13:59

1dayatatime · 12/02/2025 13:26

@Liv999

"Oh Lord..because he, like the rest of the world apart from Israel and the US, knows that the Palestinians belong in their ancestral home and always will and doesn't engage in any nonsense about ethnic cleansing"

So are you against the idea of Palestinians voluntarily seeking asylum in another country (unlike say Afghans or Iranians or Syrians) and that they must remain in Gaza whether they want to or not?

They are entitled to voluntarily seek asylum anywhere they want, however they've said they're not going anywhere and rightly so, what needs to happen now is Israel and the US rebuild what they've destroyed and stop the ridiculous talk of ethnic cleansing, wouldn't you agree?

Yalta · 12/02/2025 14:00

But experts point out that the widespread presence of Hamas does not imply extensive support. The level of control is not a measure of popularity,”

People have short memories

https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns

Any one remember the celebrations in London over the murders

Lets not forget what they were celebrating
A 10-month-old being shot and killed
The murder of a family, with three children aged 2-6 years old
Two brothers aged 5 and 8 who were shot dead in their car with their parents.

364 people who had gone to a music festival

Plus all the rest who were civilians going about their daily lives

Lets not forget where this episode in history started and the people celebrating afterwards

Palestinians In Gaza And The West Bank Celebrate On October 7, Hand Out Sweets, Fire Guns In The Air, Following Hamas's Invasion And Massacre Of Israeli Civilians In The Gaza Envelope

On October 7, 2023, just hours after Hamas invaded southern Israel and perpetrated a massacre in the Gaza Envelope in wh...

https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 14:02

LetThereBeLove · 12/02/2025 11:48

Pre emptive strike.

Which literally means first attack that started the war.

Adropinthepond · 12/02/2025 14:09

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 14:02

Which literally means first attack that started the war.

Exactly, yet the revisionism on this board is astounding.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 14:11

Liv999 · 12/02/2025 13:59

They are entitled to voluntarily seek asylum anywhere they want, however they've said they're not going anywhere and rightly so, what needs to happen now is Israel and the US rebuild what they've destroyed and stop the ridiculous talk of ethnic cleansing, wouldn't you agree?

For Palestinians to qualify as asylum seekers, it would have to be acknowledged that their lives are at risk from an oppressive government regime persecuting them on the basis of their ethnicity, religion, sexuality, (any number of protected characteristics).

Are posters willing to have the government of Israel put on such a list? Because that is what it would take for any Palestinian to successfully claim asylum.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/02/2025 14:13

Yalta · 12/02/2025 14:00

But experts point out that the widespread presence of Hamas does not imply extensive support. The level of control is not a measure of popularity,”

People have short memories

https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns

Any one remember the celebrations in London over the murders

Lets not forget what they were celebrating
A 10-month-old being shot and killed
The murder of a family, with three children aged 2-6 years old
Two brothers aged 5 and 8 who were shot dead in their car with their parents.

364 people who had gone to a music festival

Plus all the rest who were civilians going about their daily lives

Lets not forget where this episode in history started and the people celebrating afterwards

If you’re going to fall for performative street propaganda instead of paying attention to anonymous polling where people feel a bit safer expressing their real views, then I have nothing to add. The OP posted a reliable source and that source says that 75% of Gazans even AFTER the mass death and wanton destruction they have lived through are against extreme measures to obtain the independence they have been promised since 1947 but withheld from them.

Kianai · 12/02/2025 14:21

If the court ruling that Palestinians can settle in the UK using the scheme set up only for Ukranian refugees has the effect some think... then I imagine we will see the small pockets of support there were for Palestine in the UK rapidly shrink.

There is a reason that Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and Kuwait are wary. The UK may be about to discover that things can indeed get much worse.

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