Are Hamas as thick as they are evil?!

[Newbutoldfather]

After seeing masked, uniformed well-fed Hamas soldiers humiliating emaciated hostages, does anyone even feel a shred of sympathy for them?

Can’t they even understand how bad this looks and what the consequences will be both for themselves and, more importantly, for the rest of the Palestinians?

It would be hard for them to be as thick as they are evil, because they are extremely evil, but I think they might have achieved it…

There you go.

"Hamas have said they will accept this and cease all hostilities, almost all other countries in region have offered to normalise relations with Israel in exchange for a two state solution. Even Iran has indicated it is open to it.
So why not, what's the issue?"

'So why not', 'what's the issue' you say immediately after stating hamas will accept the 2 state solution - 'what's the issue'

Surely even you with your incoherent arguments can see what the issue is with hamas and being involved in a 2 state solution. They didn't say they'd step aside for it to occur THEY want to be involved. That's the issue. A massive issue and it makes it impossible. No one but hamas and their supporters want hamas.

I've better things to do with my time than continue to point put what you have said in quotes since you seem to continuously 'forget' saying it 🤔 😕

But if the US control Gaza, then Israel will never get it.

Netanyahu seems to be supporting the US suggestion, and you're not denying that.

That isn't compatible with Israel plotting to take the land to create a 'Greater Israel'

It's not that I'm 'denying it'. It's that you're making no sense.

Israel are showing very clearly that they don't want the land - or at least that isn't their priority, although I'm sure they'd like it.

But their red line is that they want neighbours who don't attack them. That's what they're looking for.

As they've said all along.

Ask me a question and I'll answer it. The PLO tried to engage in negotiations and talks, they built up an international consensus. Yasser Arafat was a guest at the white house on a number of occasions.
The Israeli government had then replaced with hamas via a funding and disinformation campaign led by mossad. They wanted hamas in power as it led to a decrease in international pressure for a two state solution
Israel isn't interested in talks they want the area ethnically cleansed. That's it.

What questions have you asked?

Do you think Hamas' campaign of violence had been the best way of advocating for a Palestinian state?

Do you think rape, murdering and hostage taking is resistance? Because you called it that

If Israel is to be accused of apartheid then what of the Israeli Arabs living in Israel? How can it then be apartheid?

No they are not showing very clearly that they don't. There was a conference last year in Jerusalem to state that Israel should occupy and settle Gaza. This was attended by a third of Netanyahu's party. Trump has said US boots won't be needed in this ethnic cleansing plan. Israel isn't going to risk the lives of IDF soldiers just to then hand over the land with complete control and benefits to Trump.

My apologies, I don't know how to tag. My questions are above.

@statsfun regardless of our differing viewpoints, I hope we can atleast agree that Trump's plan to take over Gaza and cleanse over two million Palestinians is a immoral and bad idea overall.

You know nothing of the PLO then.

I've given you a source that states Hamas would accept a two state solution. Here's another that says they're willing to disarm.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438

At no point does they say they want perpetual power?

What would be acceptable to you, if they all Committed mass suicide?

Indeed the poster doesn't.

"Prior to the Oslo Accords, the PLO's militant wings engaged in acts of violence against both the Israeli military and civilians, within Israel and abroad.[22][23][24] The United States designated it as a terrorist group in 1987, though a presidential waiver has permitted American–PLO contact since 1988.[25][26]" just a little information.

Just a little more information. Tell the victims and their families that the PLO weren't terrorists

'The PLO began their militancy campaign from its inception with an attack on Israel's National Water Carrier in January 1965.[26] The group used guerrilla tactics to attack Israel from their bases in Jordan (which then included the West Bank), Lebanon, Egypt (Gaza Strip), and Syria.[29]
The most notable of what were considered terrorist acts committed by member organizations of the PLO were in the 1970s. The 1970 Avivim school bus massacre by the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), killed nine children, three adults and crippled 19. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the second-largest PLO faction after al-Fatah, carried out a number of attacks and plane hijackings mostly directed at Israel, most infamously the Dawson's Field hijackings, which precipitated the Black September crisis."

I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of any Hamasnik mouth. Would you?

It would certainly be acceptable to me if they all commited mass suicide, yes. Although I'd argue a death of their own choosing would be a step too kind for me.

I've checked through them. The only question I can see is "what have Palestinians been doing for the last 75 years"

Living under occupation and ethnic cleansing

Do you think Hamas' campaign of violence had been the best way of advocating for a Palestinian state?

Do you think rape, murdering and hostage taking is resistance? Because you called it that

If Israel is to be accused of apartheid then what of the Israeli Arabs living in Israel? How can it then be apartheid?

1

Quoting a terrorist organisation isn't the win you think it is.

How many Jews live in Gaza?

How many Arabs live in Israel?

How then can you accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing?

I think that forcibly removing Palestinians from Gaza would be a bad idea, and would be ethnic cleansing.

I wouldn't consider it ethnic cleansing for host countries to accept voluntary migration of Palestinians from Gaza - with the deal being that the migrants are accepted as citizens of the host country and that in return they renounce any right of return.

If it could be managed, it could be the best of a bunch of even worse (for everyone) alternatives.

If Trump uses his influence to negotiate that with host countries because there's a pretty big prize in it for him, it's a bit grubby - but the outcome is still better than any of the (worse for everyone) alternatives.

Countries aren't magic. They're not some great, immutable right. They're a place for people to live their lives with their families.

@statsfun I don't totally disagree. If any Palestinians wanted to leave and a host country was willing to accept them then I don't see the harm.

But threatening countries like Egypt and Jordan with consequences if they don't take Palestinians in, is absolutely wrong. And that is what Trump is doing right now.

We'll see.

Every country negotiates for its own interests.

The US gives huge amounts of aid to Egypt and Jordan ($1.5 Billion and $1.7 Billion a year respectively).

It's not wrong for a country to make aid dependent on the recipient organising things in the donor's favour. It's naive to think that isn't part of the deal.

I think trying to get the Palestinians out of Gaza en masse would be ethnic cleansing, and calling it voluntary wouldn’t really change that unless the alternative was for them to stay peacefully where they are.

It is scary how far Trump has moved the Overton window here.

However bad Hamas are bad however radicalised the population, there are better solutions than forcible eviction.

As a (secular) Jew, I have no desire ever to live in Israel. But, in an uncertain World, the right of return is appreciated. And I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t think this also applied to any Palestinians who decide to move short term.

Then you condemn the Gazans to further generations of suffering, @newbutoldfather

It wasn't a kindness to the Palestinians 20 years ago when idealistic Westerners encouraged them to hold out for the 'inalienable right' for everyone who had left to return. Compromise might have delivered a 2SS solution - not everything they wanted, but some of it. Do you not think the Gazans of today would have been better off if Arafat had accepted that?

There is increasing conflict in the world, and climate change and competition for resources will make the world harsher in 30 years time, not more generous.

It's not a kindness for idealistic Westerners to encourage this new generation of Palestinians to hold out for something unachievable instead of securing a future for their families today.

I agree with this.

@statsfun ,

I am taking about the existing population not being exiled, not everyone who claims to be Palestinian having a right of return.

Arafat should have accepted the offer, yes, but he was a kleptocrat and didn’t want to be exposed.

Not being ethnically cleansed is a long way from idealism.

@Ilovemytulips
@statsfun

"Ilovemytulips
@statsfun I don't totally disagree. If any Palestinians wanted to leave and a host country was willing to accept them then I don't see the harm.

But threatening countries like Egypt and Jordan with consequences if they don't take Palestinians in, is absolutely wrong. And that is what Trump is doing right now."

Whilst I am strongly opposed to any forced movement of Palestinians out of Gaza (which let's be clear is clear cut ethnic cleansing) I can't see why anyone would disagree or prevent any Palestinian that voluntarily wished to leave and there was a host country willing to accept them.

However I would strongly oppose the movement (voluntarily or involuntarily) of Palestinians into either Egypt or especially Jordan.

Jordan despite being one of the poorest, has done more than any other country in the Middle East in taking in refugees- firstly with the Palestinians (who then turned on their hosts hospitality with an attempted coup) then Iraqis and most recently Syrians. These refugees already place considerable financial burden and social problems on Jordan and taking Palestinians from Gaza risks turning Jordan from an oasis of stability into civil chaos and war. If Trump wants to pull the plug on financial aid to Jordan in retaliation then I hope King Abdullah II says fine go ahead.

Surely if there are any Palestinian Gazans that voluntarily want to leave then places like wealthier Ireland that are sympathetic to their cause would be more suitable.