Are Hamas as thick as they are evil?!

[Newbutoldfather]

After seeing masked, uniformed well-fed Hamas soldiers humiliating emaciated hostages, does anyone even feel a shred of sympathy for them?

Can’t they even understand how bad this looks and what the consequences will be both for themselves and, more importantly, for the rest of the Palestinians?

It would be hard for them to be as thick as they are evil, because they are extremely evil, but I think they might have achieved it…

I agree that Jordan isn't a suitable host @1dayatatime . I'm not sure about Egypt.

Wealthier countries would definitely be more suitable, and presumably a bigger draw to Palestinians. There would need to be a requirement on the host country to integrate them properly, which would be a harder transition without a common language.

The last thing any country would want is ghettos of resentful, non-integrated immigrants from a culture where violent terrorism is considered a normal way to bring about change.

Agree that Jordan already does a great deal. Several of the gulf states are rich, and there's a common language. The Qataris are already diverting significant funds to Hamas, so they can afford it.

Alas, there is of course about as much chance of them taking in any Palestinian volunteers for relocation as there is of pigs flying.

A 2SS including Gaza is idealism. It may have been possible 20 years ago, but not now or for several generations to come.

Israel allowing Gazans back into Israel to work after October 7th is idealism.

Any country spending billions to rebuild Gaza whilst Hamas still control it - and will attack Israel again - is idealism.

Living in a gated wasteland is a pretty hellish future for Gazans.

Very happy to hear achievable alternatives.

@statsfun

A fair summary and in response to your question:

"Very happy to hear achievable alternatives."

I think there needs to be an option for those Palestinians that have simply had enough and voluntarily wished to move abroad to pursue a more peaceful and stable life for them and their families.

Of course anyone wishing to stay can do so but sending aid into Gaza whilst it's still controlled by Hamas will simply see the money ending up in Hamas' pockets and not helping the civilian population.

Forcing Hamas out or trying to destroy them is not going to work (as Israel has found out). So as harsh as it seems if the ordinary innocent Gazan population wants stability, aid and rebuilding they are going to have to be the ones calling for the overthrow of Hamas. It's not easy but it's been recently done in Syria.

Can't see many countries being willing to fund reconstruction while Hamas still remain in charge, tbh. At least in the short term. Especially if they still have any hostages but even if they didn't.

The assumption will be that as soon as they get the chance, they'll do another pogrom or at least recommence launching rockets, eventually kill some Israelis and the place will become a war zone again. I expect these views will be common regardless of whether the country in question happens to side with Israel, Hamas or neither. It would essentially be a pause in hostilities in an ongoing conflict, which doesn't make using resources on reconstruction attractive.

if the ordinary innocent Gazan population wants stability, aid and rebuilding they are going to have to be the ones calling for the overthrow of Hamas. It's not easy but it's been recently done in Syria

That would be lovely, wouldn't it? But unfortunately, I think that's just an idealistic pipedream too.

In Syria, there were mass public demonstrations against Assad (in Syria itself, despite the dangers), an opposition which had strong popular support throughout the country, rebel armed forces who even controlled some areas. It still took them 53 years, and they were only successful because Israel had recently decimated Hezbollah with their phone/walkie-talkie attack and Russia was busy in Ukraine.

Gaza has none of that.

I don't see any evidence that they even want to get rid of Hamas.

So if that's the plan, then the reality is leaving the Gazans to their own devices in a wasteland for generations, relying entirely on aid for day-to-day survival, in a world which will get harsher as climate change and conflict increase the demands for aid, whilst donor countries have less to spare themselves.

What they can negotiate now - for individual migrants, to give them a chance at a new future - will only go down.

Western idealists on their high horses about how Palestinians are the victims - with such strong opinions about what they should be entitled to, what they should hold out for - will cause those individuals and their descendants yet more harm. As they did 20 years ago when their Western moral indignation and narrative of Palestinian exceptionalism encouraged the Palestinians to turn down the unpalatable concessions needed for them to get a 2SS whilst that was still on the table.

And so, yet more generations will be sacrificed.

And they will end up with even less in another 30 years time than they could negotiate now.

💯

Seeing what’s in the news right now. I’m scared for the Palestinians. What was the point of the ceasefire? Loosening the grip before the final kill. Evil.

To. Get. The. Hostages. Back. Get it?

I'm assuming you mean Hamas are evil yes?

So it wasn’t to stop the war and stop the killing aswell? Just for the hostages?

The point of the ceasefire was to get hostages released in return for detainees and prisoners. Some of that occurred.

Israel also agreed to withdraw from the corridor between North and south Gaza. That happened, they fully withdrew.

Also a pause in fighting so a respite for individuals. With the possibility of ending the conflict, that end hadn't occurred.

Jordan will take injured children, that is good news.

People realise that Hamas are more PR and less truth and concern of their people, that's positive too.

It was worthwhile and if hamas weren't still in charge could last much longer.

@statsfun

"That would be lovely, wouldn't it? But unfortunately, I think that's just an idealistic pipedream too."

Perhaps it is idealistic but I can't see many other options.

The Gulf states are not going to be willing to pay for Gaza,s reconstruction whilst Hamas remain in charge. I mean what's the point- build everything back up only for Hamas to launch another terrorist attack and see if all knocked down against n.

Hamas cannot be militarily removed and enjoy the support of approx 30 to 35% of Gazans.

I would be strongly opposed to the involuntary removal of Gazans and if they wish to stay and rebuild on their own they they absolutely be entitled to. But if they wish to leave to find peace and stability and countries such as Ireland are willing to give them refuge then equally they should be allowed to leave

It's almost funny how posters here gloss over who actually destroyed Gaza.

And Ireland taking in Palestinians @1dayatatime Repeating ethnic cleansing dog whistles from the worst of Israeli facist politicians. Dear me.

I don’t think it makes any difference to Israel which Palestinian or Israeli Arab faction or mayor is nominally in charge anywhere in the country. If you don’t resist, you lose, your village is attacked by settlers and army, and eventually bulldozed. If you protest, you get shot at, detained, kept with no charge and your family home demolished, then your village bulldozed. If you resist via terrorist attacks the same happens. The ethnic cleansing of the land has been a creeping constant with periodic accelerations. Most ethnic cleansings take generations to accomplish when you compare to other historical examples.

They have been intensifying the air strikes, drone strikes, army ground operations, attacks and bulldozing of infrastructure to include hospitals, schools,mosques and churches in the West Bank despite the moderate Palestinian Authority working with the Israeli government to fight terrorist splinter groups. This includes snipers shooting children in the streets- even a 3 year old who was sitting in her living room eating dinner….

Violent settlers have been burning down homes, stealing livestock and injuring Palestinian villages with impunity, often with IDF assisting them. None of the Palestinians on the receiving end of these attacks are Hamas or terrorists.

Villages of peaceful Palestinians and Israeli Arabs (majority Bedouin) have been evicted using illegal lawfare methods and entire villages have been bulldozed to make way for new settlements as well. The Bedouins as Israeli citizens are a particularly sad case, they’ve been excluded from the Iron Dome, their villages even though they predate the formation of Israel are categorised as unofficial so they get no civic funding for infrastructure, health or education. Their resources are frequently cut off or diverted- ie roads destroyed, road blocks built, wells destroyed, steams diverted, electricity pulled down or solar panels destroyed. They were attacked by Hamas, some were killed and others taken hostage, they serve in the IDF and yet the Israeli government since Oct 7th has stepped up the process of seizing their lands, bulldozing their villages, evicting entire families with no where to go to in order to establish new Jewish settlements.

It just doesn’t matter.

Apparently owning a book shop that sells books with the word “Palestine” in them is an incitement to terror crime in Israel if you are not Jewish.

@Lalaloveya

So exactly what part of "I would be strongly opposed to the involuntary removal of Gazans " do you see as supporting ethnic cleansing?

What I also don't understand is why you would want to prevent Palestinian refugees voluntarily seeking asylum in another country that is willing to take them in? Or are you against the concept of asylum seeking refugees in general?

As for Ireland, there is a logic to it being a host country willing to take the Gazan refugees- they are supportive of the Palestinian cause, so refugees would be welcomed and Ireland is financially better equipped to deal with such refugees than much poorer countries such as Jordan or Egypt.

@Lalaloveya some might say it's laughable the lengths those will go to, to fail to acknowledge the good the ceasefire has done for all involved and how Hamas have single handedly led to its failure. You know the actual purpose of the thread. Feel free to post more on your thoughts on Israel on any of the others. This, like the hostage thread. Is not the place.

@LoremIpsumCici derailing again. Why?

to fail to acknowledge the good the ceasefire has done for all involved and how Hamas have single handedly led to its failure.

Hamas reacted to the multiple ceasefire violations by Israel. Their stated pause on hostage releases was due to the IDF continuing to kill Palestinian civilians in Gaza in violation of the ceasefire and statements from Israeli officials indicating that Israel did not intend to honour the agreement to move into phase II of the ceasefire. All they wanted was a) the ceasefire agreed on to actually happen no more shooting of people in Gaza and b) a reaffirmation that Israel is committed to what they agreed, moving on to phase II,

This really shouldn’t derail the ceasefire or cause it to fail. Israel violated the Lebanon ceasefire over 500x and the multiple protests from Hizbollah and Lebanon didn’t cause Israel to restart the attacks.

So if Israel does restart the attack on Gaza, it will be purely because they want to and they’ve satisfied their primary opposition by getting enough hostages released.

Trump’s random blabbing makes it very difficult to have confidence that the ceasefire is really a path to peace rather than to a phase of forced displacement out of the Gaza Strip.

I have just read pages and pages of posters saying that Hamas is the reason why Israel has been doing everything for decades, and that if only Palestinians had protested peacefully and not resorted to terrorism then everything would be fine. My post isn’t a derail, but a summary response to several pages in this thread that are naively ignoring all the oppression and destruction happening to peaceful Palestinians, and even Arab Israelis of multiple religions.

As for why I felt the need? I’m a Jewish woman with Israeli citizenship. I left Israel because of these exact problems with inequality and racism. I have family living there still. To think about a solution, two state or otherwise, requires looking beyond Hamas, Gaza and the IDF.

You’re right - a lot of posters gloss over the way Hamas destroyed Gaza through their actions on October 7th .

You have valid points about the problems of oppression, inequality and injustice towards Palestinians in Israel but the sheer horror of October 7th changed everything.

Moderate Israelis who were working for peaceful solutions, supporting Palestinians, living in kibbutz, were murdered, tortured, raped and taken hostage by Hamas.

Hamas destroyed the possibility of those moderate Israeli voices being heard ( just as they have silenced the moderate Palestinians)

@LoremIpsumCici you are leaving out the multiple violations by Hamas. Why make it one sided? Want me to list them? They hardly acted in good faith from the word go.

That is shocking

What is also shocking is the fate of the only Christian bookshop owner in Gaza …
https://www.meconcern.org/2017/05/23/palestine-killer-of-christian-identified/