American proposal to clear out Gaza

[Daftasabroom]

Trump is proposing to "clear out" Gaza.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt

So USA is actually proposing that the Gaza Strip should be cleared of Palestinians. 1.5 million people.

I know the most illuminating moment for me of all of this is the UNICEF press release on the child amputees. Thousands of children have had at least one limb removed with reduced medical supplies. It’s devastating.

Their trauma will literally take generations to heal. Something Israelis understand as they have their own inter generational trauma.

The problem has just got worse and worse over the past 100 years.
Rather than endlessly arguing the wrongs and wrongs of the past, surely a better expenditure of effort would be a consideration of how to secure a better future.
Something new has to be tried. It's obvious that the Palestinians want and need a state, so why not allow them to have one ?
In return for a guarantee of ceasing violence against Israel.
Barghouti accepts the existence of Israel within its 1967 borders.
"I still seek peaceful coexistence between the equal and independent countries of Israel and Palestine based on full withdrawal from Palestinian territories occupied in 1967"

If ever there's a case for trying something different, why not now?
Oct 7 and its ensuing reprisal has proved that current methods aren't working. For over a hundred years this has been getting worse.
If ever there's a time for pressing for a 2 state solution, it's now.

Maybe some good can come of this tragedy after all.

As for Barghouti? Well if Menachim Bagin can go from terrorist to leader, why can't he too?
Currently in an Israeli Prison. I hope he has a food taster.

Worth watching this NBC clip from a few months ago.

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/recommendation-marwan-barghouti-palestinian-nelson-mandela-supporters-rcna168248

Absolutely, potential Palestinian leaders have an uncanny knack for ending up unalived.

Barghouti is the "big ask" from the negotiations.

Even the Japanese "successful" occupation was brutal, in America the Japanese were put into internment camps and the Japanese were fucking terrified after surviving two nuclear bombs and the decimation of sustained fire bombings.

I visited the Hiroshima museum, Japan was ready to surrender and the Americans new it BEFORE the 2 bombs were dropped, they were only dropped to test how much damage they could do and to sabre rattle at the Russians.

And even with all this, noone proposed all the Japanese people had to be relocated to other countries never to return. Palestinians aren't even a factor, what's being suggested is to clear them out as if they're vermin. 😔

The 2 state solution seems to be an increasingly hollow mantra from politicians who just desperately need to say something to show that have a vision for the regi on. The reality is that the 2 state solution has been talked about for decades and now is increasingly looking politically impossible. A 2 state solution obviously needs peace and given that Pal estinians have become wedded to a terrorist organisation that views torturing children in front of their parents as 'resisitance' and the Israelis understandably put their faith in governance that secures them against such horror peace is not to the fore currently and may never be.

The rebuilding of Gaza with a Hamas leadership would mean Israel governing the supply of construction materials and demanding to oversee individual projects. Estimates are that it would take 20 years to rebuild infrastructure (including water examination plants) but with external administration this period could become unrealistic entirely. The funding for the project would not come from the US but from gulf states who have so far has very little to say about investment.

someone mentioned voluntary movement of Gazans once allowed and I think we will see this if proper channels are made availbale. Many Palestinians do not see hope for their families in a benighted land and will look to make new lives. The remaining Palestnians would have to reconcile themselves with living relatively impoverished lives while the rebuilding occurs and we will have Hamas if not removed from power using a thirst for vengeance to recruit tens of thousands of men to essentially prepare for another strike against Israel to continue the so called 'resistance'.

It is again at this background I think many governments are becoming increasingly realistic about the possibility of peaceful co existence of Plestinians and Israelis even though it will not be stated publically (Maybe Trump is an exception as he is prone to to shouting what is said quietly). Governments may be spouting righteous statements at the moment but all are looking to have good relations with the U.S. And Israel so we have to see how the politics turns out in the long term.

The redesign of Gaza may take time and the exodus of Palestinians may take time but I think there may be increasingly regional acceptance that Gaza as it is isn't working at all and long term peace will only be a reality through a dispersal of people's many of whom have a deep seated ideological hatred of Israelis and Jews.

Peace occurred after the second world war due to the Germans and Japanese abandoning fascism and racial superiority as ideologies and the people actively seeking a better more prosperous world. Look at Germany and Japan now.

The big question is whether Palestinians can ever take that step or will they be for ever wedded to holocaust replicating manifesto of Hamas. The choice in my opinion is theirs.

Why only mention Plan Dalet, @BelleHathor?

Why not also mention the Seige of Jerusalem?

You're the one who is painting a one-sided narrative.

@Martymcfly24 - yes it's very well documented that the Arab Higher Committee and also the leaders of the attacking Arab League countries told Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes and shelter in neighbouring countries so that their armies could come in and 'throw the Jews into the sea'. Did you really not know that? You've fallen victim to more partial narratives, I'm afraid.

But no, it wasn't in a context of local peace and prosperity. It was during a civil war, which followed several decades of escalating internecine violence and fairly symmetrical tit-for-tat attacks by Jewish and Arab militias.

@statsfun perhaps we have both fallen for the narrative we have chosen.

You see the Arab Higher Committee as the reason Palestinians voluntarily left their home I am wondering if events such as Operation Cast Thy Bread ( where wells in Palestinian villages were poisoned with Typhoid in April 1948) could have contributed to this .

Anyway as a pp post said always looking back is not the answer when we see posts like @mids2019 which advocates for the removal of nearly 2 million people with their history, culture, food etc and dispersing them to God knows where.

Israel has achieved its objective.

@Martymcfly24 I specifically mentioned "a civil war, which followed several decades of escalating internecine violence and fairly symmetrical tit-for-tat attacks by Jewish and Arab militias."

It is only the anti-Israel believers who push a one-sided narrative.

The instructions of the Arab leaders to the Palestinian Arabs to leave - in contrast to the instructions of the Jewish leaders to the Jewish population to stay - is a large part of the different behaviour. Plus of course, the Jews having no 'safe neighbouring country' to go to.

Not evil Jews expelling innocent Arabs.

Looking back clearly is important when anti-semites use false narratives to demonise Israel and Jews.

Absolutely. It has staggered me how many false narratives are being displayed here.

In return for a guarantee of ceasing violence against Israel.

What guarantees, by whom? Guaranteed how?

Will those guarantees be similar to those from Egypt in June 2023, when Israel agreed a deal
for the PA to develop Gaza's 2 oil fields? Hamas was to get a share of the profit "to develop the economic and political situations for their people" under strong guarantees from Egypt that Hamas wouldn't use it to develop its weapons, and that Hamas were ready to sign a long-term truce with Israel.

4 months later, Hamas committed the October 7th atrocities.

What use were Egypt's guarantees then?

Why would Israel - or anyone - think that anything has changed?

Allowing a 2SS would just give a better launchpad for more attacks, which would then be more effective. Why would Israel allow that?

I have no idea what options the Palestinians have now. Fewer than they did 20 years ago. Fewer than they did 18 months ago.

@statsfun
"it is only the anti Israel believers who push a one sided narrative "

Listen we all have our own opinions here. And yes we do all use our own facts to support our own narrative on an issue that is so complex, but you cannot honestly believe this ridiculous statement.

Plus it is not any Israel or anti semitic to believe that 2 million people should not be ethnically cleansed.

Its easy to say people shouldnt be ethnically cleansed. Very simple moral position that everyone can sign up to. But, what is the solution for the current impasse? How can Israel guarantee 7 October or worse wont happen again?

which would be your proposal?

Sounds like you’re saying Palestinians must be ethnically cleansed, because Israeli people take priority. But because you’re wringing your hands and it’s done with sadness rather than anger, then it isn’t a genocide and it’s actually not that big a deal, (and of course they deserve it because of October 7th)?

But, what is the solution for the current impasse? How can Israel guarantee 7 October or worse wont happen again?

I'm not sure but open to discussion

You’re asking the wrong question. The question is how do you secure the safety and security of everyone in the region.

I don’t feel like there is any hope really. With the governments involved, Trump and Netanyahu and the lack of a voice for Palestinians. With the destruction of Gaza being so extensive and with the amount of trauma people have experienced.

I can’t see any good come from any of it. Certainly not peace.

So ethnic cleansing can be justified if the conditions are right?

How would any rational person read that into what I wrote?

I'm becoming increasingly confused by your posts.

I said- Some forced out at gunpoint, some left because they fully expected to return once all the Jews were dead.

And then in your very next post you accused me of erasing what happened to them. I literally said what happened to them. And then I pointed out that Isreali Jews had the same experience all through the ME.

It feels more to me like you can't acknowledge Isrealis have also been victims in this conflict. Also. Not solely.

Your painting of Isrealis as the only villains in this, and the Palestinians as the oppressed, with no agency in how this came to be, no acknowledgment of wrongs on both sides, is exactly the narrative that Hamas uses. And it's a narrative that polarizes and encourages hatred. Please reflect on that.

You wrote it's easy to say not to ethnically cleanse but what is the solution. How can Israel guarantee it won't be attacked again.

Your argument is that ethnic cleansing is a possible solution due to Israel's need for security.

So ethnic cleansing according to you is justified under the right conditions.

I fail to see how my answer was irrational.

I find it quite ironic that you just made the very argument you accused Sharon of.

The first paragraph was Sharon's. The next 3 were yours.

I don’t think it sounds at all like that…. What a weird interpretation