Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

Really? That's not what I've read? Hamas has always been open to a two state solution. It doesn't correlate with Israels political goals.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-f756cc054732eb3f7e0c49a9987560a0

Whilst accepting the two state solution Hamas have always maintained they won't acknowledge Israels legitimacy as a state whilst it maintains a system of apartheid prioritising the rights of one group of citizens over another. Also they want Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders as a prerequisite to the two state solution. Something Israel will never accept.
This is often misrepresented in the western media as hamas reflecting the two state solution

Really? That's not what I've read? Hamas has always been open to a two state solution. It doesn't correlate with Israels political goals.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-f756cc054732eb3f7e0c49a9987560a0
Whilst accepting the two state solution Hamas have always maintained they won't acknowledge Israels legitimacy as a state whilst it maintains a system of apartheid prioritising the rights of one group of citizens over another. Also they want Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders as a prerequisite to the two state solution. Something Israel will never accept.
This is often misrepresented in the western media as hamas reflecting the two state solution

Absolutely agree with you here. At the end of the day Hamas were not created in a vacuum.

Especially when you examine the list I posted above and see the ways the Israel has made everyday life so much more difficult for Palestinians you can see how a resistance group was created. If the same impositions were made on the liberties of people in my country I can imagine there would pushback also. That is not even to mention the violence, murders and imprisonment without trial by the IDF before October 7th

Goes without saying I fully condemn their methods and October 7th.

Israel's security choices were also not made in a vacuum.

Frankly, who cares whether Hamas would accept a 2SS. Their actions on October 7th have made that impossible.

Their celebrations disgust me. How can they celebrate the ceasefire as a victory? The war they started has made things worse for everyone: but most especially for Palestinians.

I agree with @Whatsinanamehey that Hamas have destroyed more Palestinian lives than any Israeli ever could. No single Israeli could ever have destroyed Gaza as comprehensively - or put a 2SS as far out of reach - as Hamas have through their actions.

So what now for the Palestinians?

I agree with @whatsinanamehey that Hamas have destroyed more Palestinian lives than any Israeli ever could.

I don't recall writing this.

Golden407, did you read the article you posted? Their so-called acceptance of a two state solution would be ‘temporary’ and does not include them stopping fighting against Israel. That’s not a two state solution.

Realistically, there will not be a two state solution while Hamas is in control of Gaza.

@statsfun if you lived in a country where day to day living was made much more difficult by another country . Where every piece of business you did was hampered by them even down to a restricting on faster internet. Where you had to pay for the demolition of your own house for a settler to take it. Where water and imports were controlled by this county and where you had seen neighbors be the victims of violence and children murdered for throwing stones.
Where the police will never support you.

Would you roll over and take it?

Israel has made destroyed more Palestinian lives. That is a fact.

It wasn't Hamas that has turned most of Gaza into rubble and destroyed almost all essential infrastructure. Does Hamas have blame in it? Yes. That doesn't absolve Israel of their crimes.
Google maps have updated some of their images of Gaza and some areas look like there has been an apocalypse. It's shocking what has been allowed to happen.

There will never be a two state solution while Netanyahu is in charge either so lets not lay the blame at one door here.

@Whatsinanamehey who left the essential infrastructure when they withdrew and then who destroyed it and misused it?

@Martymcfly24 you could say the same about Israel. Do you live under daily rocket fire when you're trying to live your life?

I don't recall all the hospitals and universities and schools being built by Israel.
I do know they repeatedly bombed them even needlessly when they didn't need to. Have we forgotten the huge controlled explosion of one of the Gaza universities that the IDF admitted was done for no reason.

Soldiers blowing up universities just for likes on social media. Fucking sick.

And the IDF standard response is 'we will look into it' as they have been saying everytime they get called out on a war crime.

@stomachamelon The rocket launches began in 2001.
The restrictions on trade and movement in Gaza by Israel began in the 1990's.

There's a bit of a chicken and egg situation here.

It's horrific! Do you think Israel should accept Palestinian demands to withdraw to the pre 1967 borders in order to proceed with a two state solution? What concessions need to be made by both sides?

Apologies, @Whatsinanamehey . It was @spunkycritic

Agree with all, apart from you miscrediting whasinanamehey saying something bad thing about Hamas. That hasn't happened so far in this thread.

Who benefits most from Palestinian deaths?

Hamas, of course.

If I was Israeli and lived in a militarily and economically strong democracy, I would not support a government which proposed giving up a bad but manageable situation and returning to '67 borders (20km or so from the principle cities) - handing over autonomy and security control to a people who had committed October 7th atrocities and vowed to repeat them, had proved that they wished to slaughter my family, and contined to fire rockets into my country. I wouldn't really care if that was unfair, I just wouldn't do it.

No pressure from any country in the world would make me accept it. And that's even without the generational trauma of knowing that other countries had previously stood by whilst 1/3 of my people worldwide - 2/3 of those in Europe - were industrially slaughtered, just 80 years ago, by people with a similar all-encompassing hate towards me. But even without that history, I wouldn't accept it. If my country had military strength, then I wouldn't accept the risk.

If I was Palestinian and lived in on oppressive regime - oppressed both by strongman leaders and by a neighbouring country - that would undoubtedly be a horrific way to live. I can recognise that I probably wouldn't accept the role my grandparents and parents had played in my shitty situation. I'd probably really hate the foreign neighbours and have mixed feelings about the strongman leaders. But I hope I would have the logic and insight to realise that provoking a stronger enemy by repeatedly attacking them wasn't making my own situation any better.

So I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't commit or support those attacks. If I had any political influence at all, I'd try to be pragmatic and find the best deal which was realistically possible - accepting that a not-great deal and a future was better than a flattened homeland and ongoing wars which my people could never win, and made our living situation worse and worse.

I'm not sure what your sources are, but the general consensus is that about half the greenhouses were demolished by settlers, many of them unhappy that their compensation for leaving Gaza was too small.
Of those greenhouses that remained, some were looted, but by October the greenhouses were up and running.
However border restrictions limited the number of trucks leaving Gaza and so produce had to be dumped by the roadside.

@spunkycritic need to look harder then.

@statsfun
You didn't need to write all that to summarize:
It's all the Palestinians own fault because of what past generations did (what was that?)
Do what Israel says and take any deal or else it's again your own fault. Life might be shit but it could be shitter.

Oh and if you don't have the "logic and insight" to accept the shitness anything that happens.. guess what.. it's your own fault.

Nope.

If you can't win, don't start a fight that will make your own life worse.

Make a deal which actually gives you a future.

Billboards with the faces of Jewish settler terrorists who were all released have been put up all over the west bank

"On the other side of one of the billboards, a message in Arabic reads, “There is no future in Palestine” alongside a picture of displaced Palestinians fleeing their homes in Gaza."

🤮

Some just choose to ignore the constant threats of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homeland by Israel. This is barbaric behaviour.

Put up and shut up so.

Right.

And absolve the bully of all blame.