Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

What is an "average" Palestinian, strange word to use to describe people

You accused me of beimg prejudiced and saying something inflammatory. I was actually questioning a statement of yours which I thought had no basis in reality. You accused me of sweeping statements that had no basis.

so, let me get this straight - you have seen no evidence that 1000s of Hamas were likely involved in the 7 October attack, even though 1500 Israelis & others were killed or taken hostage and many more injured plus buildings, cars destroyed in a large scale attack which involved taking hostages and bodies back into gaza. Yet plenty of footage exists.

You have no evidence that the people involved have friends and relatives, though its impossible for this not to be true

You have seen no evidence that they filmed & circulated what they did with glee. And, by the way, I have a relative in counter terrorism and there is much more footage than has been made available because it is too horrific.

You dont think its a sound assumption that if I have seen footage then an 'Average' Palestinian must have too.

OK.

As for

Of course you are not compelled to justify how Israel treats Palestinians but by not doing so, please understand that others will make assumptions as to why you are not / unable to.

What you asked me to comment on was the WB:

No comments on what is reasonable expectations of the state of Israel towards Palestinians in the WB?

We were talking about Gaza. Its ridiculous to make assumptions about what I think on the basis that Im not prepared to change the subject. Why do I have to talk about whatever you want to talk about?

Ask @Polka83. She introduced the idea of the 'average law abiding Palestinian (which I hope you can acknowledge most of them will be) '

In english 'average' is quite a well used and understood word though.

I think the fact that the message 'There are no innocents in Gaza' has been strongly pushed to try and justify mass killings and dehumanise a population makes people sensitive to non evidenced statements about how many people were involved in Oct 7.

'Ordinary' and 'Average' are well-used in English when talking about people.

Both are used in the Merriam Webster definition of 'The man on the Clapham Omnibus'

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20man%20on%20the%20Clapham%20omnibus

It's a concept still used in English law, to decide whether a party has acted as a reasonable person would – for example, in a civil action for negligence. According to Wikipedia, "the character is a reasonably educated, intelligent but nondescript person, against whom the defendant's conduct can be measured."

For Palestinians, 'not a Hamas fighter' would probably be added.

It is astonishing to read that some posters believe that if your relative/friend took part in 07/10 then you must be guilty by association of the same crimes.
If you follow that reasoning, then the slaughter of Palestinians is justifiable.
Both Hamas and the IDF have videoed themselves committing war crimes. Both are beyond contempt.
Let's not forget that Netanyahu has rejected an investigation into 07/10. Is it because his government ignored the repeated warnings about an attack? Is it because the IDF took 6 hours to respond. leaving Hamas to murder? Is it because the Hannibal directive was implemented?
So many questions.

@polka83 said am not sure how many average Palestinians were involved in keeping hostages in Gaza (very few given their population) - but I imagine they would have readily given them back to their families if their own loved ones lives could be saved by a ceasefire.

So I guess the question is, if a "reasonably educated, intelligent but nondescript Palestinian person, not a Hamas fighter" knew about a hostage being held, what percentage of them remained silent and complicit? What percentage found a way to get information of their whereabouts to someone who would rescue them?

We know that many hostages were held in Palestinian homes - with spouses and relatives as well as the fighters themselves - and presumably neighbours were aware too (they were often in appartment blocks, so hard to hide from many people)

I don't actually know how many Palestinians passed information back to Israel about the hostages location. Does anyone here know whether/how much that happened?

I remember a hostage rescue from an appartment, where the soldiers approached in disguise. So presumably they judged it likely that at least some of the 'average' Palestinians standing around would not only not support them in rescuing the hostages, but would actively try to prevent it.

Nobody said that a relative of a hostage taker was guilty of being a hostage taker. But you would be guilty of knowing your relative had committed a range of heinous, and ongoing, crimes and doing nothing about it. An only you are creating a logical line that results in killing any Palestinian. That would not stand up under international law.

Nobody said that a relative of a hostage taker was guilty of being a hostage taker. But you would be guilty of knowing your relative had committed a range of heinous, and ongoing, crimes and doing nothing about it.

So by this logic are average israelis guilty of knowing that Netanyahu and his government are guilty of war crimes but doing nothing about it or is it slightly more complicated than that.

Are we really in the realms of arguing that if I knew my brother had kidnapped, assaulted & raped an Israeli woman and kept her in his house that I have no moral or legal obligation to do something about it.

Im out if this is the depths to which we have sunk.

Pretty sure that seeing a crime on the news doesn't make you an accessory or accomplice.

Helping the crime take place (eg hiding a hostage in your house) makes you an accomplice.

Hiding the crime after it happened (eg not informing Israel of a hostage location when you know it, or hiding a murderer's identity) makes you an accessory.

That's in UK law. I don't know about Israeli law, but suspect there are similar concepts.

Exactly. Its gaza law that is the issue though. I wonder what gaza law says about assault, rape, murder, hostage taking and imprisonment. It would be very interesting to know exactly what is being defended here.

I don't agree that israelis are complicit in what their government does but I also don't accept that a relative or "average" Isreali is complicit because of what they saw an armed dangerous terrorist do. I also would not expect then to let the IDF know because again I doubt their safety could be guaranteed. I'm just making the point that it is complicated but the tone of your post and others is that Palestinians who may have witnessed something are guilty.

Im out if this is the depths to which we have sunk.
I feel that about many posts on these threads.

It all depends on duress and intimidation

Yes @Dulra. Easy to judge when it's not you or your family at gunpoint, or you being estranged from society and work opportunities (as can happen to conscientious objectors.) I think international law does take into account extreme duress.

That's my point. I honestly don't understand what choice some people think they had. I work with parents who have been threatened with their child's life and intimidated into storing drugs by drug gangs because their child has run up a small drug debt. It happens all the time. These are armed dangerous terrorists

So if Palestinians couldn't safely pass information about hostage locations, and would be 'estranged from society and work opportunities', doesn't this come back to recognising that this is a majority Palestinian view, not just a few outliers?

@statsfun Sorry, I was referring to Israeli conscientious objectors being estranged from society and work opportunities. I don't believe in demonising any entire population when they live under duress, such as conscription. In Gaza I do believe there would be risk to life in defying the current regime.

Yes, that is probably true for both.

I still haven't seen any reason not to believe that many, many Palestinians support Hamas and the attacks on Israel.

Doesn't mean you should demonise the whole population, as you say.

But I think it's counter-productive to pretend it isn't true, just to pander to an idealised Western narrative. You can't build a workable solution on it.

I also don't think the IDF have done anything to develop the kind of trust you would need to encourager informers.

I think you have to consider the wider context of any support. I was listening to an Israeli talk of the reasons why so many Israelis have moved towards the right of the political spectrum after the October 7th attack.

After fifteen months of war I would think there are Palestinians who have also gone further towards the right. I should add that from what I have seen and read many Palestinians don't believe that Israelis were raped on October 7th.

@statsfun Hard to know, as there's very little independent journalism, access for aid organisations and charities is only just increasing, and it looks like your average person is more worried about getting some clean water and keeping their kids alive another day. There seem more pressing concerns than the huge task of reorganising the government. Hopefully there will be a chance to get some basics in place, more access for independent organisations, help from the international community, and a more accurate picture of what Gazans want. I personally would be very surprised if the majority don't want peace and a better future for their children. It's a pretty universal thing for people all over the world to want those things.

Both populations to some extent may now have more extreme views about each other. It is unfortunately the natural consequence of war.