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Conflict in the Middle East

Yes, it's a genocide. Led by Donkeys

156 replies

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:07

I support Israel and I support Palestine. I pray for Peace

“Dear friends,

This morning, we filled the entirety of Parliament Square in London with a banner quoting a leading Israeli Holocaust Professor who says Israel’s assault on Gaza now constitutes a genocide.

Professor Amos Goldberg has researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence for 30 years. In a statement issued to coincide with the Parliament Square protest, the respected author and scholar says: “Yes, it’s a genocide. And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.”

All of our projects are considered carefully as we develop and deliver them, but perhaps none more so than this one because of the seriousness of the indictment. But as Professor Goldberg says, once you are clear in your own mind that a genocide is being committed, it becomes imperative to speak up and name it.

Professor Goldberg is not the only Israeli scholar to say the assault on Gaza is a genocide. Professor Omer Bartov is a Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University in the US. He says: "This is clearly an operation whose goal is to destroy the ability of Palestinians to live in that area as a group. And in my definition, that is genocide."

You can hear Professor Goldberg's words in the film of today's intervention or read his statement in full below.”

My name is Amos Goldberg. I am an Israeli Professor of Holocaust Studies. For nearly 30 years I have researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence.

And I want to tell whoever is willing to listen, that what’s happening now in Gaza is a genocide.

A year ago when October 7th happened, like all Israelis I was in shock. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. 1200 people - more than 800 of them civilians - were killed in one day. Children and the elderly were among those taken hostage. Communities were destroyed. It was outrageous, traumatizing, personal. Like most Israelis, I know people who were killed, who lost loved ones or whose loved ones were taken hostage.

But immediately afterwards came Israel’s response and within weeks thousands of civilians were killed in Gaza. It took me some time to digest what was unfolding before my eyes. It was agonizing to confront that reality. I was reluctant to call it a genocide.

But if you read Raphael Lemkin – the Jewish-Polish legal scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ and was the major driving force behind the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention – what is happening in Gaza now is exactly what he had in mind when he spoke about genocide.

It does not need to look like the Holocaust to be a genocide. Each genocide looks different and not all involve killing of millions or the entire group. The United Nations Genocide Convention explicitly asserts that genocide is the act of deliberately destroying a group in whole or in part. Those are the words.

But there does need to be a clear intent.

And indeed, there are clear indications of intent to destroy Gaza: Israel’s leaders - including the prime minister and the minister of defence - and many high-ranking military officers, media personalities, rabbis as well as ordinary soldiers were very open about what they wanted to achieve. There were countless documented incitements to turn the whole of Gaza into rubble and claims that there are no innocent people living there. A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my 58 years of living here.

Now that vision has been enacted. Tens of thousands of innocent children, women and men have been killed. Over a hundred thousand were wounded. There is a near total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and blocking of humanitarian aid. There are mass graves and reliable testimony of summary executions. Children that were shot by snipers. All the universities and almost all hospitals are gone. Almost all the population is displaced. There have been numerous bombings of civilians in so-called ‘safe zones’. Gaza does not exist anymore. It is completely destroyed. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the stated intentions of Israel’s leadership.

Lemkin - that scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ - described two phases of a genocide. The first is the destruction of the annihilated group and the second is what he called “imposition of the national pattern” of the perpetrator. We are now witnessing the second phase as Israel prepares ethnically cleansed areas for Israeli settlements.

And therefore, I have come to the conclusion that this is exactly what a genocide looks like. We don’t teach about genocides in order to realize it retrospectively. We teach about it in order to prevent it and to stop it.

But like in every other case of genocide in history right now we have mass denial. Both here in Israel and around the world.

But reality cannot be denied.

So yes, it is a genocide.

And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.

- YouTube

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https://youtu.be/WMwqhdVV5as?si=8tqXZ4KIuoymqGW-

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 09:28

samG76 · 06/12/2024 09:00

10Usernames "If Israel wants a buffer zone, they can have it on THEIR side"

So Israel has to clear its own territory because a neighbouring state which has carried out one massacre threatens to do so again? I don't think that makes any sense. That's what the Israelis did in the North with Hizbollah but it was clearly a temporary solution. Otherwise your habitable territory would shrink as states made threats against you.

Palestine 'shrinks' every day as state sanctioned settlers make threats against them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander surely?

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 09:37

MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 09:28

Palestine 'shrinks' every day as state sanctioned settlers make threats against them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander surely?

Exactly, how much land has Israel stolen over the years and now they want to steal more.

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 09:40

@Lalaloveya

"I'm not in the UK so I'm not an expert but the government doesn't seem to support the treatment of this group and it has imposed sanctions. It fully supports Israel's genocidal assault on Gaza."

The UK continues and is actually increasing trade with China that involves products made with Uyghur slave Labour in concentration camps . There has been no official condemnation of this by the UK Government whereas there has been official criticism by the UK Government of certain Israeli actions so to say the UK fully supports Israel's actions is incorrect..

Similarly whilst there has been Government concerns over the genocidal slaughter of Southern Christian Sudanese the UK Government continues to trade with Sudan and it is one of the major food exporters to UAE and other Middle Eastern countries.

MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 09:41

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 09:37

Exactly, how much land has Israel stolen over the years and now they want to steal more.

It's not like the land would even be taken from Israel. They would just be repurposing their own land but apparently that's too much to expect from Israel. Of course we should expect them to take more land that doesn't belong to them Confused

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 09:52

MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 09:41

It's not like the land would even be taken from Israel. They would just be repurposing their own land but apparently that's too much to expect from Israel. Of course we should expect them to take more land that doesn't belong to them Confused

Yes the only seemingly logical conclusion that would follow on from years of stealing land on one side so why not steal some on the other too. But first we will forcefully displace anyone living there through threat of death and then we will start killing whoever refuses to leave. And then we will be in uproar and say everyones being mean to us when people call us out on our ethnic cleansing practices.

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 10:01

@Dulra

"Now ask yourself why you feel the need to us atrocities elsewhere as a point scoring exercise? You accuse others of not caring about children's lives in Sudan and Syria because there is not enough protests but all it says to me is that you care little for the lives of children in Gaza and resent the attention they are getting"

A good question. So I think it is fair to say that the conflict in Gaza and the impact it is having on ordinary innocent civilians has had a lot of media attention, a lot of public protests and a lot of online pressure.

The unfortunate reality is that this then "crowds out" Government, public and media attention from conflicts such as in Syria or genocide of the Uyghurs. This is because the Government, media and public only have the capacity to care about so many innocent people.

When the tragic issue of the persecution of Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan is raised, it is sadly shut down by the pro Gaza lobby as whataboutery or diversion tactics or as you put it "caring little about the lives of children in Gaza".

Now from a pro Palestinian perspective this makes perfect sense because every news article or MN post on Uyghurs or Sudan is one less article or post on Gaza and indeed does divert attention. But this is placing the suffering of Gazans including children as more important than the suffering of Uyghurs and Sudanese including children.

From my perspective I see the suffering of all in conflicts especially children as equally worthy of Government and public attention and I would rather see a more equitable distribution of such Government and public attention rather than focusing on just one conflict and not caring about others.

Lalaloveya · 06/12/2024 10:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Dulra · 06/12/2024 10:34

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 10:01

@Dulra

"Now ask yourself why you feel the need to us atrocities elsewhere as a point scoring exercise? You accuse others of not caring about children's lives in Sudan and Syria because there is not enough protests but all it says to me is that you care little for the lives of children in Gaza and resent the attention they are getting"

A good question. So I think it is fair to say that the conflict in Gaza and the impact it is having on ordinary innocent civilians has had a lot of media attention, a lot of public protests and a lot of online pressure.

The unfortunate reality is that this then "crowds out" Government, public and media attention from conflicts such as in Syria or genocide of the Uyghurs. This is because the Government, media and public only have the capacity to care about so many innocent people.

When the tragic issue of the persecution of Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan is raised, it is sadly shut down by the pro Gaza lobby as whataboutery or diversion tactics or as you put it "caring little about the lives of children in Gaza".

Now from a pro Palestinian perspective this makes perfect sense because every news article or MN post on Uyghurs or Sudan is one less article or post on Gaza and indeed does divert attention. But this is placing the suffering of Gazans including children as more important than the suffering of Uyghurs and Sudanese including children.

From my perspective I see the suffering of all in conflicts especially children as equally worthy of Government and public attention and I would rather see a more equitable distribution of such Government and public attention rather than focusing on just one conflict and not caring about others.

The unfortunate reality is that this then "crowds out" Government, public and media attention from conflicts such as in Syria or genocide of the Uyghurs. This is because the Government, media and public only have the capacity to care about so many innocent people.
The media has always reported on the current issues, Syria was very high profile a number of years ago it got bumped off by something else. Ukraine was very high profile it got bumped off by something else, Gaza was high profile it is not as much anymore and Syria, Lebanon and US election bumped it off. That is how the media works. Doesn't mean there are not people, organisations working on these issues, media attention is only part of it. Thankfully though governments do have the capacity to deal with more than one issue at a time!

When the tragic issue of the persecution of Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan is raised, it is sadly shut down by the pro Gaza lobby as whataboutery or diversion tactics or as you put it "caring little about the lives of children in Gaza".
I have only ever seen you and others raise the issue of the Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan on threads about Gaza so I think you are part of the problem and don't seem to care enough to start discussion forms about these issues as and of themselves. Their profile needs to be raised but not as a point score or deflection when Gaza is being talked about but out there on their own merits.

Purspectiveplease · 06/12/2024 13:36

ScrollingLeaves · 05/12/2024 19:26

Haaretz:

GAZA: Amnesty International accused Israel of committing genocide in Gaza in a new report, writing that it "found sufficient basis" to make such a conclusion, and that "in looking at the broader picture of Israel's military campaign and the cumulative impact of its policies and acts, genocidal intent is the only reasonable conclusion."

  • The Israeli branch of Amnesty, which operates as a separate NGO from the international body, rejected the report and said that despite the scope of attacks on civilians in Gaza, it is doubtful that "the element of intent in perpetrating the full or partial extermination of the Palestinian population in the framework of the war" has been proven in the report.
  • A small number of Amnesty Israel's members argued that, "according to the available information, it can be determined that Israel is committing or has committed genocide in Gaza."

Someone on another thread explained in quite a lot of detail why the Amnesty report isn't as straight forward as it seems. I've copied some of it below:

"The section starts on page 101, called State Intent.
There is a section called "ICJ's Threshold for Inferring Genocide". The ICJ has
held that the "intent to destroy the group, in whole or in part, must be the
only reasonable inference which can be drawn from the pattern of conduct."
Amnesty believes that the 'only reasonable inference' standard is too high, so
it uses a different one, with support from a dissenting opinion from an ICJ
case.
It is of course legitimate to debate what the standard in international law is or
should be, and it's legitimate for Amnesty to have a view. But to publish a
report stating in the headline there is genocide that then explaining deep into
the document that it has used a minority definition not the ICJ's is, at best,
misleading.
I'm not expert enough to have a very confident view from first principles.
But the report gives me very high confidence that under ICJ jurisprudence
this isn't genocide (because Amnesty says so even though it disagrees).
As for what the definition should be, I'm not expert enough either. But I think
it's very important that we support and reinforce stable concepts in law, not
use them as campaigning tools, as the concepts are there for very important
reasons (like deterring and prosecute genocide, which could hardly be more
important)."

Amnesty claims to have no political motivations and attempts to not be racist, so it's really alarming that they're intentionally choosing to bury the lead (i.e. This is NOT a genocide according to the ICJ's definition). Most people won't read the report in enough detail to notice that their real point is "we think the ICJ's definition is too strict, but if the ICJ would use this other definition that is less strict, then it would be a genocide." They don't treat other nations as unreasonably, so I'm not sure why they think it's not racist / not political to lie about Israel. Amnesty International in Israel is actually a seperate charity to Amnesty in the rest of the world because human rights activists in Israel got so fed up with the racism they experienced from Amnesty.

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 13:42

@Dulra

"I have only ever seen you and others raise the issue of the Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan on threads about Gaza so I think you are part of the problem and don't seem to care enough to start discussion forms about these issues as and of themselves"

Then I suggest you check out my comments on the two Syrian threads and the one Sudan threads - you can easily find them in the "Conflict in the Middle East " section. Sadly these threads don't seem to get as many posts as the Gazan threads do.

I presume that you haven't seen my posts there because you haven't been interested in reading about those topics.

MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 13:54

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 13:42

@Dulra

"I have only ever seen you and others raise the issue of the Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan on threads about Gaza so I think you are part of the problem and don't seem to care enough to start discussion forms about these issues as and of themselves"

Then I suggest you check out my comments on the two Syrian threads and the one Sudan threads - you can easily find them in the "Conflict in the Middle East " section. Sadly these threads don't seem to get as many posts as the Gazan threads do.

I presume that you haven't seen my posts there because you haven't been interested in reading about those topics.

Really I think it boils down to there is a time and a place. There is a thread about Israeli hostages, why don't they talk about the Nigerian hostage crisis there? Why is there no continual updates of how long those poor people have been missing, no updates when there has been releases or rescues? No prayers for them? Why were people only putting up posters for Israeli hostages, do they not care about other hostages elsewhere? Do you think it would be fair to hassle people and ask them why they care so much about Israeli hostages but haven't given the same time on the thread to Nigerian hostages? Do you think it would be fair to accuse people of being racist because they only put up posters for Israeli hostages?

The threads about Syria, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Sudan are absolutely the right place to talk about those issues and they absolutely should be given airtime. Threads about other things though probably aren't the right place for that and it comes across as people using the plight of those suffering for their own agendas.

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 14:51

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 07:10

When's the last time you saw a protest about the uighyur genocide? Of course it was going to be about gaza.

That wasn't the point I was making. When people think of a genocide happening today, they automatically think of Gaza. People have eyes and ears, some even have critical thinking and can form their own opinions on what is happening there.
The protests against our government for selling weapons to Israel started in October 2023, long before 43000 Palestinians were slaughtered.

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 14:59

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 14:51

That wasn't the point I was making. When people think of a genocide happening today, they automatically think of Gaza. People have eyes and ears, some even have critical thinking and can form their own opinions on what is happening there.
The protests against our government for selling weapons to Israel started in October 2023, long before 43000 Palestinians were slaughtered.

I know what point you were making. The reason they think of gaza is because accusing Israel of genocide is everywhere. Its all over social media, on news reports showing the regular protests, on stickers on lamp posts & in super markets, on graffiti, signs in windows, on badeges people are wearing etc etc

Dulra · 06/12/2024 14:59

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 13:42

@Dulra

"I have only ever seen you and others raise the issue of the Uyghurs, Afghans in Pakistan or Christians in Sudan on threads about Gaza so I think you are part of the problem and don't seem to care enough to start discussion forms about these issues as and of themselves"

Then I suggest you check out my comments on the two Syrian threads and the one Sudan threads - you can easily find them in the "Conflict in the Middle East " section. Sadly these threads don't seem to get as many posts as the Gazan threads do.

I presume that you haven't seen my posts there because you haven't been interested in reading about those topics.

Yes there are a number of Syrian threads and I do remember the Sudanese thread. Still doesn't explain why you choose to deflect from the genocide in Gaza on a thread about the genocide in Gaza.

I presume that you haven't seen my posts there because you haven't been interested in reading about those topics.
What absolute projection that is. If you have seen any of my comments on Sudan you'll see I have been quite active in the real world supporting Sudanese people what I don't do is use their plight as a tool to deflect from other vulnerable people, but you do you.

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:06

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 08:29

@Nads0622

"You also have to appreciate that in Gaza children and babies are being slaughtered at an alarming rate so
its natural for people with a conscience and a heart to come out and protest ! If you can sleep well at night knowing that this is going on good for you but some of us can’t !"

But children are being killed at an alarming rate in conflicts across the world such as Sudan or Syria.

So why no protests about those countries or do the lives of Syrian or Sudanese children count for less than the lives of Gazan children in the eyes of the protesters?

I suggest you read this article from Oxfam.
1 child every 30 minutes is killed in Gaza.
I won't answer your question because it is, once again, a deflection.
https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza-by-israeli-military-than-any-other-recent-conflict-in-a-single-year/

Oxfam GB | More women and children killed in Gaza by Israeli military than any other recent conflict in a single year

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza-by-israeli-military-than-any-other-recent-conflict-in-a-single-year

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:08

samG76 · 06/12/2024 09:00

10Usernames "If Israel wants a buffer zone, they can have it on THEIR side"

So Israel has to clear its own territory because a neighbouring state which has carried out one massacre threatens to do so again? I don't think that makes any sense. That's what the Israelis did in the North with Hizbollah but it was clearly a temporary solution. Otherwise your habitable territory would shrink as states made threats against you.

The irony!

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:21

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 14:59

I know what point you were making. The reason they think of gaza is because accusing Israel of genocide is everywhere. Its all over social media, on news reports showing the regular protests, on stickers on lamp posts & in super markets, on graffiti, signs in windows, on badeges people are wearing etc etc

Glad it is. Glad that people are fully aware of what the Israeli government is inflicting on Palestinian civilians is not going unnoticed. Glad that protests are happening because of our government's stance on selling weapons to Israel, weapons used on women and children. Glad that their suffering is recognised.
Glad that some of us haven't lost our ability to empathise in the face of such horrors.

samG76 · 06/12/2024 15:26

It is interesting that people love the slogan "No-one [or insert group persecuted by Hamas, eg gays or feminists or trade unionists] is free until Palestine is free" but I have never heard it said that gays aren't free until the Kurds are free, for example. It is just people's obsession with Israel. And of course without Israel, local members of these groups would be big trouble....

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 15:28

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:21

Glad it is. Glad that people are fully aware of what the Israeli government is inflicting on Palestinian civilians is not going unnoticed. Glad that protests are happening because of our government's stance on selling weapons to Israel, weapons used on women and children. Glad that their suffering is recognised.
Glad that some of us haven't lost our ability to empathise in the face of such horrors.

You're missing your own point now!

username299 · 06/12/2024 15:40

samG76 · 06/12/2024 15:26

It is interesting that people love the slogan "No-one [or insert group persecuted by Hamas, eg gays or feminists or trade unionists] is free until Palestine is free" but I have never heard it said that gays aren't free until the Kurds are free, for example. It is just people's obsession with Israel. And of course without Israel, local members of these groups would be big trouble....

Israel surely are the heroes! If all those people weren't dead, they'd be in danger!

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:42

samG76 · 06/12/2024 15:26

It is interesting that people love the slogan "No-one [or insert group persecuted by Hamas, eg gays or feminists or trade unionists] is free until Palestine is free" but I have never heard it said that gays aren't free until the Kurds are free, for example. It is just people's obsession with Israel. And of course without Israel, local members of these groups would be big trouble....

Really? We are all obsessed with Israel? I don't think most people cared about Israel until they had their eyes opened by what is happening in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.

username299 · 06/12/2024 15:44

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:42

Really? We are all obsessed with Israel? I don't think most people cared about Israel until they had their eyes opened by what is happening in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.

Some of us have been concerned about Israel for a long time. Atrocities have been taking place for decades.

MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 15:48

samG76 · 06/12/2024 15:26

It is interesting that people love the slogan "No-one [or insert group persecuted by Hamas, eg gays or feminists or trade unionists] is free until Palestine is free" but I have never heard it said that gays aren't free until the Kurds are free, for example. It is just people's obsession with Israel. And of course without Israel, local members of these groups would be big trouble....

Yes, I'm sure the gay people, feminists and trade Unionists in Gaza are ever so grateful for what Israel is doing for them. Liberating them from their homes, their families, food, water and medical care, whatever would they do without Israel Confused] Do people even think before they type.

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 15:49

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:42

Really? We are all obsessed with Israel? I don't think most people cared about Israel until they had their eyes opened by what is happening in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.

Just not true. Palestine has been the most fashionable cause on the left for the last 50 or so years, bar none, and one of the few international causes that has traction across left to right mainly because antisemitism unites left & right. People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:57

username299 · 06/12/2024 15:40

Israel surely are the heroes! If all those people weren't dead, they'd be in danger!

Thanks for the laugh! Israel, to the rescue as long as you are not Palestinians, Lebanese, Druze or a Bedouin.
Interesting article about the discriminatory laws passed in Israel
https://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel/

The Adalah database of 50 discriminatory laws in Israel

An American lawyer reviews the Adalah list of 50 discriminatory laws inside Israel and finds that they create an unequal, and sometimes separate, status for Palestinians and Jews…

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel