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Conflict in the Middle East

Yes, it's a genocide. Led by Donkeys

156 replies

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:07

I support Israel and I support Palestine. I pray for Peace

“Dear friends,

This morning, we filled the entirety of Parliament Square in London with a banner quoting a leading Israeli Holocaust Professor who says Israel’s assault on Gaza now constitutes a genocide.

Professor Amos Goldberg has researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence for 30 years. In a statement issued to coincide with the Parliament Square protest, the respected author and scholar says: “Yes, it’s a genocide. And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.”

All of our projects are considered carefully as we develop and deliver them, but perhaps none more so than this one because of the seriousness of the indictment. But as Professor Goldberg says, once you are clear in your own mind that a genocide is being committed, it becomes imperative to speak up and name it.

Professor Goldberg is not the only Israeli scholar to say the assault on Gaza is a genocide. Professor Omer Bartov is a Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University in the US. He says: "This is clearly an operation whose goal is to destroy the ability of Palestinians to live in that area as a group. And in my definition, that is genocide."

You can hear Professor Goldberg's words in the film of today's intervention or read his statement in full below.”

My name is Amos Goldberg. I am an Israeli Professor of Holocaust Studies. For nearly 30 years I have researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence.

And I want to tell whoever is willing to listen, that what’s happening now in Gaza is a genocide.

A year ago when October 7th happened, like all Israelis I was in shock. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. 1200 people - more than 800 of them civilians - were killed in one day. Children and the elderly were among those taken hostage. Communities were destroyed. It was outrageous, traumatizing, personal. Like most Israelis, I know people who were killed, who lost loved ones or whose loved ones were taken hostage.

But immediately afterwards came Israel’s response and within weeks thousands of civilians were killed in Gaza. It took me some time to digest what was unfolding before my eyes. It was agonizing to confront that reality. I was reluctant to call it a genocide.

But if you read Raphael Lemkin – the Jewish-Polish legal scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ and was the major driving force behind the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention – what is happening in Gaza now is exactly what he had in mind when he spoke about genocide.

It does not need to look like the Holocaust to be a genocide. Each genocide looks different and not all involve killing of millions or the entire group. The United Nations Genocide Convention explicitly asserts that genocide is the act of deliberately destroying a group in whole or in part. Those are the words.

But there does need to be a clear intent.

And indeed, there are clear indications of intent to destroy Gaza: Israel’s leaders - including the prime minister and the minister of defence - and many high-ranking military officers, media personalities, rabbis as well as ordinary soldiers were very open about what they wanted to achieve. There were countless documented incitements to turn the whole of Gaza into rubble and claims that there are no innocent people living there. A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my 58 years of living here.

Now that vision has been enacted. Tens of thousands of innocent children, women and men have been killed. Over a hundred thousand were wounded. There is a near total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and blocking of humanitarian aid. There are mass graves and reliable testimony of summary executions. Children that were shot by snipers. All the universities and almost all hospitals are gone. Almost all the population is displaced. There have been numerous bombings of civilians in so-called ‘safe zones’. Gaza does not exist anymore. It is completely destroyed. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the stated intentions of Israel’s leadership.

Lemkin - that scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ - described two phases of a genocide. The first is the destruction of the annihilated group and the second is what he called “imposition of the national pattern” of the perpetrator. We are now witnessing the second phase as Israel prepares ethnically cleansed areas for Israeli settlements.

And therefore, I have come to the conclusion that this is exactly what a genocide looks like. We don’t teach about genocides in order to realize it retrospectively. We teach about it in order to prevent it and to stop it.

But like in every other case of genocide in history right now we have mass denial. Both here in Israel and around the world.

But reality cannot be denied.

So yes, it is a genocide.

And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/WMwqhdVV5as?si=8tqXZ4KIuoymqGW-

OP posts:
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12
SharonEllis · 04/12/2024 19:44

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 19:29

You haven’t shared YOUR opinion! Dropping links is not engaging in discussion.

Why don't you lead the way rather than criticising everyone else for posting in the wrong way.

Auvergne63 · 04/12/2024 20:10

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:17

Whataboutery...

At its finest.

Lalaloveya · 04/12/2024 20:50

I agree that it's a genocide. Obviously it hasn't been declared as such in court because those responsible haven't been brought before a court yet. I'm not aware of any genocide that was legally declared as such while in was ongoing, but I'm open to correction on that one.

username299 · 04/12/2024 20:52

SharonEllis · 04/12/2024 19:12

It hasn't been classed as a genocide at all. A lot of people have decided it is. That's a different thing. This is just misinformation.

It's been classed as genocide by the UN and other experts. It's under investigation as genocide in the ICC and has been for some time. What misinformation?

Whatsinanamehey · 04/12/2024 20:53

Thank you for sharing this OP, atleast more and more professionals are finally conceding that it is a genocide. I don't think Israel will face much repercussions for their mass slaughter and war crimes but they will be judges harshly by history. Not only them but all those who supported and were complicit.

Whatsinanamehey · 04/12/2024 20:56

The Washington Post had a eye opening and quite terrifying article of Israeli soldiers crimes, it was shocking to read. They aren't even ashamed of their war crimes. One soldier said he was recording the atrocities they were carrying out in Gaza despite being told not to, to boost morale back in Israel - sickening.

Whatsinanamehey · 04/12/2024 21:01

@Echobelly Palestine is perhaps in focus because unlike these other countries, Israel is supposed to be an ally

This in a nutshell.

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 21:08

TBH, I find it distasteful for some people to be debating whether or not it is 'technically' a genocide. Whatever it is, it's an abomination.

Dulra · 04/12/2024 21:14

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 21:08

TBH, I find it distasteful for some people to be debating whether or not it is 'technically' a genocide. Whatever it is, it's an abomination.

💯Even it has not been declared a genocide legally (majority of genocides are declared retrospectively) the very fact there is concern that it is at risk of being declared a genocide should set alarm bells ringing and actions to prevent things deteriorating to that extent

Whatsinanamehey · 04/12/2024 21:16

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 21:08

TBH, I find it distasteful for some people to be debating whether or not it is 'technically' a genocide. Whatever it is, it's an abomination.

I think it's a refusal to accept it because a genocide is known as one of the worst crimes carried out against a people. If they accept it's a genocide they are conflicted with their support for Israel as a state.

Whatsinanamehey · 04/12/2024 21:18

Dulra · 04/12/2024 21:14

💯Even it has not been declared a genocide legally (majority of genocides are declared retrospectively) the very fact there is concern that it is at risk of being declared a genocide should set alarm bells ringing and actions to prevent things deteriorating to that extent

Remember journalists from outside are barred, when the war is over and international bodies and journalists can finally go into Gaza, it is going to be absolutely shameful to see what was allowed to happen. I don't think we can know the full extent till then bur it will be too late.

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 21:34

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 21:08

TBH, I find it distasteful for some people to be debating whether or not it is 'technically' a genocide. Whatever it is, it's an abomination.

Surely you understand that something could be an abomination without being a genocide. Not all wars are genocide, in fact very few are. There was some concern that it might evolve into a genocide about a year ago, but South Africa actually had to ask for an extension to submit their evidence because they didn’t have any. The Palestinians make better use of social media than any other group in a conflict and still they haven’t managed to find any evidence of a genocide. YouTube isn’t full of Uyghurs detailing their suffering (while looking breathtakingly beautiful with a full face of makeup…) and I can’t think of a TikToker who got famous for documenting the war from Myanmar, Burkina Faso, Sudan or Ukraine. The war in Ukraine killed double as many people as the war in the Middle East last year and they probably have at least as much or more surviving infrastructure for internet access, yet it’s Gaza which dominates the internet and public imagination. Despite that, they still haven’t documented anything beyond the horrors of a “normal” war. That’s not to say it’s not awful, it absolutely is. But genocide is a technical term with a specific legal meaning, not a synonym for “really bad”.

SharonEllis · 04/12/2024 21:46

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 21:34

Surely you understand that something could be an abomination without being a genocide. Not all wars are genocide, in fact very few are. There was some concern that it might evolve into a genocide about a year ago, but South Africa actually had to ask for an extension to submit their evidence because they didn’t have any. The Palestinians make better use of social media than any other group in a conflict and still they haven’t managed to find any evidence of a genocide. YouTube isn’t full of Uyghurs detailing their suffering (while looking breathtakingly beautiful with a full face of makeup…) and I can’t think of a TikToker who got famous for documenting the war from Myanmar, Burkina Faso, Sudan or Ukraine. The war in Ukraine killed double as many people as the war in the Middle East last year and they probably have at least as much or more surviving infrastructure for internet access, yet it’s Gaza which dominates the internet and public imagination. Despite that, they still haven’t documented anything beyond the horrors of a “normal” war. That’s not to say it’s not awful, it absolutely is. But genocide is a technical term with a specific legal meaning, not a synonym for “really bad”.

Well said. I find it odd that war isn't considered awful enough. The suffering in a war which impacts this badly on civilians is horrific.

andIsaid · 04/12/2024 21:54

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 18:28

What are you hoping to achieve with this thread? You don’t seem to have shared your own opinion.

Probably hoping against hope that someone somewhere will do something for this tragic people...

Lalaloveya · 04/12/2024 22:32

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 21:34

Surely you understand that something could be an abomination without being a genocide. Not all wars are genocide, in fact very few are. There was some concern that it might evolve into a genocide about a year ago, but South Africa actually had to ask for an extension to submit their evidence because they didn’t have any. The Palestinians make better use of social media than any other group in a conflict and still they haven’t managed to find any evidence of a genocide. YouTube isn’t full of Uyghurs detailing their suffering (while looking breathtakingly beautiful with a full face of makeup…) and I can’t think of a TikToker who got famous for documenting the war from Myanmar, Burkina Faso, Sudan or Ukraine. The war in Ukraine killed double as many people as the war in the Middle East last year and they probably have at least as much or more surviving infrastructure for internet access, yet it’s Gaza which dominates the internet and public imagination. Despite that, they still haven’t documented anything beyond the horrors of a “normal” war. That’s not to say it’s not awful, it absolutely is. But genocide is a technical term with a specific legal meaning, not a synonym for “really bad”.

You think what we've seen is "a normal war"? That's unbelievable.

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 23:41

Lalaloveya · 04/12/2024 22:32

You think what we've seen is "a normal war"? That's unbelievable.

There aren't any "nice" wars. War is always horrifying.

Lalaloveya · 04/12/2024 23:47

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 23:41

There aren't any "nice" wars. War is always horrifying.

And this isn't a war. It's a genocide. Israel is committing war crimes every single day. It's disturbing that you won't see that.

MothToAnInferno · 05/12/2024 00:04

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 21:08

TBH, I find it distasteful for some people to be debating whether or not it is 'technically' a genocide. Whatever it is, it's an abomination.

This. I'm so sick of seeing people post 'it's not genocide' like it is some kind of gotcha. There have been enough testimonies of war crimes at this point that there should be 100% agreement that Western nations should do all in their power to stop this now and that there should be consequences for the perpetrators of these crimes.

For instance the trade agreement between the EU and Israel needs to be suspended now. Article 2 of the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which is really all about trade, binds both parties to observe human rights and democratic principles. This was breached a long time ago now and the ICJ decision in July just further backs up that position. By not suspending it what are the EU saying about our values? The silence from the EU on this is complicity.

Purspectiveplease · 05/12/2024 00:19

Lalaloveya · 04/12/2024 23:47

And this isn't a war. It's a genocide. Israel is committing war crimes every single day. It's disturbing that you won't see that.

The evidence doesn’t support that. The combatant to civilian death ratio in Gaza is actually lower than in other similar conflicts. Israel warns civilians before bombs are dropped so that they can evacuate, which is almost unheard of in other conflicts. They provide humanitarian relief, vaccine programmes and aid, again, not typical in war. You don’t hear Ukrainians complaining that Russia isn’t giving them enough warning before they drop bombs because simply doesn’t happen at all. There aren’t Uyghur social media influencers complaining about China not organising and protecting their aid from their other Uyghurs or not organising their healthcare well enough because it’s so far outside of the realm of possibility there. The situation in Gaza is indisputably awful, tragic and it must be resolved as soon as possible. But that is “normal” in war and this is by no means the worst war in history.

MothToAnInferno · 05/12/2024 00:44

They provide humanitarian relief, vaccine programmes and aid, again, not typical in war.

@Purspectiveplease Is this true? I was under the impression that they allow aid in(sometimes and only some types of aid), they allowed the vaccination programme which was done by the UN, they allow(some) humanitarian relief whilst blocking some international aid agencies and killing other humanitarian workers. I didn't know that Israel themselves provide these things. How many Israeli humanitarian relief workers are working in Gaza right now? What vaccines have Israel provided? How much aid has Israel donated to Gaza?

PeaceForPalestine · 05/12/2024 05:04

Thank you OP. I watched that on YouTube yesterday funnily enough. It's been obvious to most of us that it's a genocide, for months. But, I do think it's useful to have a clear description, and from an Israeli too.

Re the comparison with the situation in Afghanistan. Funnily enough, in my case that's a very useful comparison, as they've provoked very similar emotional reactions in me. I remember at the time of the airlift in Afghanistan, as the Taliban were approaching, not being able to sleep properly, thinking about the terror those poor people were experiencing, knowing the British government had used them and then effectively abandoned so many of them to horror. Feeling helpless to do anything personally...
I've had many similar moments since the current situation in Gaza. I remember after hearing about the doctor (can't remember his name) who was captured and taken to one of Israel's notorious prisons, where his life ended in very disturbing circumstances, I was haunted for days and nights. Like most of us, I'm especially affected by the situation for all the children there.
To be clear, I also think of the Israeli hostages and how horrible that is too. Poor everyone 😔
I should change my username to PeaceForEveryone. I'll see if it's a taken name or not.
Oh all the suffering in this world - of both people and animals. I'm overwhelmed by it sometimes. This vale of tears 😢

Alphaalga · 05/12/2024 05:18

It's been genocide all along. Israel has even killed its own to expedite he continuation of its murderous agenda.

Anyone still denying genocide and calling this relentless slaughter of innocents self-defence is either a psychopathic liar, stupid, or both.

Interlaken · 05/12/2024 05:26

2024onwardsandup · 04/12/2024 18:08

I look forward to their banners about the women and girls of Afghanistan that the uk government (among others) abandoned

Please don’t use the women of Afghanistan as a justification to let genocide happen.

LBD not also speaking about Afghanistan does not make it OK for Israel to commit genocide.

Interlaken · 05/12/2024 05:36

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 23:41

There aren't any "nice" wars. War is always horrifying.

If Hamas were inflicting on Israel what Israel is doing in Gaza, that would definitely be genocide. So what mental hoops do you have to go through to justify what is happening.

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