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Conflict in the Middle East

Yes, it's a genocide. Led by Donkeys

156 replies

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:07

I support Israel and I support Palestine. I pray for Peace

“Dear friends,

This morning, we filled the entirety of Parliament Square in London with a banner quoting a leading Israeli Holocaust Professor who says Israel’s assault on Gaza now constitutes a genocide.

Professor Amos Goldberg has researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence for 30 years. In a statement issued to coincide with the Parliament Square protest, the respected author and scholar says: “Yes, it’s a genocide. And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.”

All of our projects are considered carefully as we develop and deliver them, but perhaps none more so than this one because of the seriousness of the indictment. But as Professor Goldberg says, once you are clear in your own mind that a genocide is being committed, it becomes imperative to speak up and name it.

Professor Goldberg is not the only Israeli scholar to say the assault on Gaza is a genocide. Professor Omer Bartov is a Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University in the US. He says: "This is clearly an operation whose goal is to destroy the ability of Palestinians to live in that area as a group. And in my definition, that is genocide."

You can hear Professor Goldberg's words in the film of today's intervention or read his statement in full below.”

My name is Amos Goldberg. I am an Israeli Professor of Holocaust Studies. For nearly 30 years I have researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence.

And I want to tell whoever is willing to listen, that what’s happening now in Gaza is a genocide.

A year ago when October 7th happened, like all Israelis I was in shock. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. 1200 people - more than 800 of them civilians - were killed in one day. Children and the elderly were among those taken hostage. Communities were destroyed. It was outrageous, traumatizing, personal. Like most Israelis, I know people who were killed, who lost loved ones or whose loved ones were taken hostage.

But immediately afterwards came Israel’s response and within weeks thousands of civilians were killed in Gaza. It took me some time to digest what was unfolding before my eyes. It was agonizing to confront that reality. I was reluctant to call it a genocide.

But if you read Raphael Lemkin – the Jewish-Polish legal scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ and was the major driving force behind the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention – what is happening in Gaza now is exactly what he had in mind when he spoke about genocide.

It does not need to look like the Holocaust to be a genocide. Each genocide looks different and not all involve killing of millions or the entire group. The United Nations Genocide Convention explicitly asserts that genocide is the act of deliberately destroying a group in whole or in part. Those are the words.

But there does need to be a clear intent.

And indeed, there are clear indications of intent to destroy Gaza: Israel’s leaders - including the prime minister and the minister of defence - and many high-ranking military officers, media personalities, rabbis as well as ordinary soldiers were very open about what they wanted to achieve. There were countless documented incitements to turn the whole of Gaza into rubble and claims that there are no innocent people living there. A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my 58 years of living here.

Now that vision has been enacted. Tens of thousands of innocent children, women and men have been killed. Over a hundred thousand were wounded. There is a near total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and blocking of humanitarian aid. There are mass graves and reliable testimony of summary executions. Children that were shot by snipers. All the universities and almost all hospitals are gone. Almost all the population is displaced. There have been numerous bombings of civilians in so-called ‘safe zones’. Gaza does not exist anymore. It is completely destroyed. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the stated intentions of Israel’s leadership.

Lemkin - that scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ - described two phases of a genocide. The first is the destruction of the annihilated group and the second is what he called “imposition of the national pattern” of the perpetrator. We are now witnessing the second phase as Israel prepares ethnically cleansed areas for Israeli settlements.

And therefore, I have come to the conclusion that this is exactly what a genocide looks like. We don’t teach about genocides in order to realize it retrospectively. We teach about it in order to prevent it and to stop it.

But like in every other case of genocide in history right now we have mass denial. Both here in Israel and around the world.

But reality cannot be denied.

So yes, it is a genocide.

And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.

- YouTube

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https://youtu.be/WMwqhdVV5as?si=8tqXZ4KIuoymqGW-

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 16:05

username299 · 06/12/2024 15:44

Some of us have been concerned about Israel for a long time. Atrocities have been taking place for decades.

I am one of those.

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 16:08

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 15:49

Just not true. Palestine has been the most fashionable cause on the left for the last 50 or so years, bar none, and one of the few international causes that has traction across left to right mainly because antisemitism unites left & right. People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.

Some people will think of every excuse under the sun rather than admit that Israel is supposed to be a liberal allied democracy, yet enacts apartheid and genocide so that raises alot more eyebrows than a country like Russia carrying out war crimes. But no, let's just blame it on anti-semitism instead.

Dulra · 06/12/2024 16:18

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 15:49

Just not true. Palestine has been the most fashionable cause on the left for the last 50 or so years, bar none, and one of the few international causes that has traction across left to right mainly because antisemitism unites left & right. People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.

because antisemitism unites left & right.

Yes we are all motivated by hate nothing more.

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 16:18

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 15:49

Just not true. Palestine has been the most fashionable cause on the left for the last 50 or so years, bar none, and one of the few international causes that has traction across left to right mainly because antisemitism unites left & right. People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.

I wondered when the word antisemitism would be used.
Frankly, I find your post distasteful. Fashionable cause?
People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.
Well, according to Oxfam, the daily death toll of Palestinians in Israel’s war on* *Gaza surpasses that of any other major conflict in the 21st century.
Maybe, just maybe, that's why us lefties are obsessed.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-08-14/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-death-toll-in-gaza-is-bad-even-compared-to-the-wars-in-ukraine-iraq-and-myanmar/00000191-50c6-d6a2-a7dd-d1decf340000

The numbers show: Gaza war is one of the bloodiest in the 21st century

***

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-08-14/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-death-toll-in-gaza-is-bad-even-compared-to-the-wars-in-ukraine-iraq-and-myanmar/00000191-50c6-d6a2-a7dd-d1decf340000

Dulra · 06/12/2024 16:39

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 16:18

I wondered when the word antisemitism would be used.
Frankly, I find your post distasteful. Fashionable cause?
People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.
Well, according to Oxfam, the daily death toll of Palestinians in Israel’s war on* *Gaza surpasses that of any other major conflict in the 21st century.
Maybe, just maybe, that's why us lefties are obsessed.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-08-14/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-death-toll-in-gaza-is-bad-even-compared-to-the-wars-in-ukraine-iraq-and-myanmar/00000191-50c6-d6a2-a7dd-d1decf340000

It's nothing to do with left or right it's to do with basic humanity and if that's fashionable I'm all for it. Some don't seem to understand that there are people out there that can care for the wellbeing of others, it has nothing to do with sides.

ScrollingLeaves · 06/12/2024 16:47

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 16:18

I wondered when the word antisemitism would be used.
Frankly, I find your post distasteful. Fashionable cause?
People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.
Well, according to Oxfam, the daily death toll of Palestinians in Israel’s war on* *Gaza surpasses that of any other major conflict in the 21st century.
Maybe, just maybe, that's why us lefties are obsessed.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-08-14/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-death-toll-in-gaza-is-bad-even-compared-to-the-wars-in-ukraine-iraq-and-myanmar/00000191-50c6-d6a2-a7dd-d1decf340000

I was never properly aware of what was happening in Palestine before. I believed the Israelis must be the good guys, though I also realised that everyone had to watch out for criticising Israel in any way as that would be considered to be anti-Semitic.

I think the wanton Israeli murder of Sherin, the Israeli interference with her funeral, and the Israeli trouble making in the Al Aqsa mosque first made me really wonder.

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 17:02

ScrollingLeaves · 06/12/2024 16:47

I was never properly aware of what was happening in Palestine before. I believed the Israelis must be the good guys, though I also realised that everyone had to watch out for criticising Israel in any way as that would be considered to be anti-Semitic.

I think the wanton Israeli murder of Sherin, the Israeli interference with her funeral, and the Israeli trouble making in the Al Aqsa mosque first made me really wonder.

Ironically, I became aware of the plight of Palestinians, following the terrorist attacks by the PLO in Paris in the 80s.
I was studying there at the time and it was frightening. As a 19 years old, I was only interested in studying and having a good time but I wanted to know why they were planting bombs in the metro. I wanted to understand their mentality/ideology/ beliefs/ reasons.
So I read ( no internet at the time!) and read and read. It shocked me. This isn't excusing their actions, the way I will never excuse what Hamas did; but
terrorism doesn't happen in a vacuum. Understand how and why people turn to terrorism might help to quash it. If you don't give it the reasons to flourish, then it shouldn't happen.

Purspectiveplease · 06/12/2024 18:50

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 16:18

I wondered when the word antisemitism would be used.
Frankly, I find your post distasteful. Fashionable cause?
People are undoubtedly obsessed with Israel in a way that no other country gets the same focus.
Well, according to Oxfam, the daily death toll of Palestinians in Israel’s war on* *Gaza surpasses that of any other major conflict in the 21st century.
Maybe, just maybe, that's why us lefties are obsessed.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-08-14/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-death-toll-in-gaza-is-bad-even-compared-to-the-wars-in-ukraine-iraq-and-myanmar/00000191-50c6-d6a2-a7dd-d1decf340000

How do they calculate that? The total number of war-related deaths in Ukraine in the last year was more than double the death count of Palestinians in this conflict, even using Hamas’ dodgy numbers (ie there are days where they officially report a higher number of children dying than the total number of people they report as dying that day). Is it proportional to the population size maybe? It’s not clear. If that’s the method, they should use a word like “relatively” to make it clearer that it isn’t the highest death toll.

Purspectiveplease · 06/12/2024 18:53

This reply has been deleted

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2024onwardsandup · 06/12/2024 18:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Quite - the streets of London where filled with people cheering on October 7 before israel
had done anything

the logic here also doesn’t work. Jewish people
went through the Holocaust … and more recently October 7. So if major trauma justifies obscene acts then why doesn’t that also apply to Israel?

MothToAnInferno · 06/12/2024 19:11

2024onwardsandup · 06/12/2024 18:57

Quite - the streets of London where filled with people cheering on October 7 before israel
had done anything

the logic here also doesn’t work. Jewish people
went through the Holocaust … and more recently October 7. So if major trauma justifies obscene acts then why doesn’t that also apply to Israel?

It would seem that it does? Israel have been aided to wreak absolsute carnage in Gaza with no repercussions for breaking international law for over a year. So yeah, it would seem that it does apply to Israel.

Dulra · 06/12/2024 19:13

Purspectiveplease · 06/12/2024 18:50

How do they calculate that? The total number of war-related deaths in Ukraine in the last year was more than double the death count of Palestinians in this conflict, even using Hamas’ dodgy numbers (ie there are days where they officially report a higher number of children dying than the total number of people they report as dying that day). Is it proportional to the population size maybe? It’s not clear. If that’s the method, they should use a word like “relatively” to make it clearer that it isn’t the highest death toll.

Estimated Civilian casualties in Ukraine is 12,162

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/

80,000 soldiers in active combat killed.

It is the high number of civilian casualties they are referring to. Over 16,000 children

Ukraine civilian war casualties 2024 | Statista

Two years since the start of the Russian invasion, the civilian death toll in Ukraine exceeded 12,100 as of October 2024, as verified by OHCHR.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties

bodydrain · 06/12/2024 20:17

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 18:28

What are you hoping to achieve with this thread? You don’t seem to have shared your own opinion.

Sorry too ill at mo

OP posts:
bodydrain · 06/12/2024 20:24

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 18:28

What are you hoping to achieve with this thread? You don’t seem to have shared your own opinion.

Briefly, Gazan civilians are suffering terribly currently. Netanyahu’s govt on terrible path

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 20:28

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 16:08

Some people will think of every excuse under the sun rather than admit that Israel is supposed to be a liberal allied democracy, yet enacts apartheid and genocide so that raises alot more eyebrows than a country like Russia carrying out war crimes. But no, let's just blame it on anti-semitism instead.

So its not the victims that matter after all? I can assure you that Ukrainians 'raise their eyebrows' at Russian war crimes. And the war crimes of Hamas don't 'raise eyebrows' as they are not running a 'liberal allied democracy'. It all makes sense.

bodydrain · 06/12/2024 20:41

bodydrain · 06/12/2024 20:24

Briefly, Gazan civilians are suffering terribly currently. Netanyahu’s govt on terrible path

Edited

Ps Hamas of course terrible too

OP posts:
Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 21:45

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 20:28

So its not the victims that matter after all? I can assure you that Ukrainians 'raise their eyebrows' at Russian war crimes. And the war crimes of Hamas don't 'raise eyebrows' as they are not running a 'liberal allied democracy'. It all makes sense.

Oh this again, it does feel like we are going round and round in circles at times. 'Allied' is the key word that you have missed.

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 21:46

The last I checked we weren't allies with Russia or Hamas.

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 21:50

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 21:46

The last I checked we weren't allies with Russia or Hamas.

So what? Can you not see how ridiculous an argument this is? So much for humanitarianism.

Lalaloveya · 06/12/2024 22:10

Wow. The irony is strong here tonight.

Whatsinanamehey · 06/12/2024 22:13

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 21:50

So what? Can you not see how ridiculous an argument this is? So much for humanitarianism.

Are you wilfully misunderstanding what I am saying? Nobody Is saying that one should care less. Israel is an allied country and therefore there is more public pressure on our government.

inamarina · 11/12/2024 12:25

Auvergne63 · 06/12/2024 15:21

Glad it is. Glad that people are fully aware of what the Israeli government is inflicting on Palestinian civilians is not going unnoticed. Glad that protests are happening because of our government's stance on selling weapons to Israel, weapons used on women and children. Glad that their suffering is recognised.
Glad that some of us haven't lost our ability to empathise in the face of such horrors.

I think if people automatically think about Gaza when they hear “Yes, it’s a genocide”, it can mean two things:

A: That they think there is a genocide happening in Gaza.
B: That they are aware of the fact that Israel is being accused of conducting a genocide in Gaza.

The latter doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with that stance.

Auvergne63 · 11/12/2024 15:26

inamarina · 11/12/2024 12:25

I think if people automatically think about Gaza when they hear “Yes, it’s a genocide”, it can mean two things:

A: That they think there is a genocide happening in Gaza.
B: That they are aware of the fact that Israel is being accused of conducting a genocide in Gaza.

The latter doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with that stance.

Absolutely.

ThatWaryHedgehog · 11/12/2024 15:32

What everyone on this thread seems to be completely ignoring is that Hamas could end this by surrendering and freeing the hostages. Instead they choose to continue to put Palestinian women and children’s lives in danger. I really hoping that the media coverage about the latest progress on hostage release and ceasefire negotiations is true.