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Conflict in the Middle East

Yes, it's a genocide. Led by Donkeys

156 replies

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:07

I support Israel and I support Palestine. I pray for Peace

“Dear friends,

This morning, we filled the entirety of Parliament Square in London with a banner quoting a leading Israeli Holocaust Professor who says Israel’s assault on Gaza now constitutes a genocide.

Professor Amos Goldberg has researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence for 30 years. In a statement issued to coincide with the Parliament Square protest, the respected author and scholar says: “Yes, it’s a genocide. And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.”

All of our projects are considered carefully as we develop and deliver them, but perhaps none more so than this one because of the seriousness of the indictment. But as Professor Goldberg says, once you are clear in your own mind that a genocide is being committed, it becomes imperative to speak up and name it.

Professor Goldberg is not the only Israeli scholar to say the assault on Gaza is a genocide. Professor Omer Bartov is a Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University in the US. He says: "This is clearly an operation whose goal is to destroy the ability of Palestinians to live in that area as a group. And in my definition, that is genocide."

You can hear Professor Goldberg's words in the film of today's intervention or read his statement in full below.”

My name is Amos Goldberg. I am an Israeli Professor of Holocaust Studies. For nearly 30 years I have researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence.

And I want to tell whoever is willing to listen, that what’s happening now in Gaza is a genocide.

A year ago when October 7th happened, like all Israelis I was in shock. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. 1200 people - more than 800 of them civilians - were killed in one day. Children and the elderly were among those taken hostage. Communities were destroyed. It was outrageous, traumatizing, personal. Like most Israelis, I know people who were killed, who lost loved ones or whose loved ones were taken hostage.

But immediately afterwards came Israel’s response and within weeks thousands of civilians were killed in Gaza. It took me some time to digest what was unfolding before my eyes. It was agonizing to confront that reality. I was reluctant to call it a genocide.

But if you read Raphael Lemkin – the Jewish-Polish legal scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ and was the major driving force behind the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention – what is happening in Gaza now is exactly what he had in mind when he spoke about genocide.

It does not need to look like the Holocaust to be a genocide. Each genocide looks different and not all involve killing of millions or the entire group. The United Nations Genocide Convention explicitly asserts that genocide is the act of deliberately destroying a group in whole or in part. Those are the words.

But there does need to be a clear intent.

And indeed, there are clear indications of intent to destroy Gaza: Israel’s leaders - including the prime minister and the minister of defence - and many high-ranking military officers, media personalities, rabbis as well as ordinary soldiers were very open about what they wanted to achieve. There were countless documented incitements to turn the whole of Gaza into rubble and claims that there are no innocent people living there. A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my 58 years of living here.

Now that vision has been enacted. Tens of thousands of innocent children, women and men have been killed. Over a hundred thousand were wounded. There is a near total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and blocking of humanitarian aid. There are mass graves and reliable testimony of summary executions. Children that were shot by snipers. All the universities and almost all hospitals are gone. Almost all the population is displaced. There have been numerous bombings of civilians in so-called ‘safe zones’. Gaza does not exist anymore. It is completely destroyed. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the stated intentions of Israel’s leadership.

Lemkin - that scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ - described two phases of a genocide. The first is the destruction of the annihilated group and the second is what he called “imposition of the national pattern” of the perpetrator. We are now witnessing the second phase as Israel prepares ethnically cleansed areas for Israeli settlements.

And therefore, I have come to the conclusion that this is exactly what a genocide looks like. We don’t teach about genocides in order to realize it retrospectively. We teach about it in order to prevent it and to stop it.

But like in every other case of genocide in history right now we have mass denial. Both here in Israel and around the world.

But reality cannot be denied.

So yes, it is a genocide.

And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.

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OP posts:
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12
Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:26

Purspectiveplease · 05/12/2024 00:19

The evidence doesn’t support that. The combatant to civilian death ratio in Gaza is actually lower than in other similar conflicts. Israel warns civilians before bombs are dropped so that they can evacuate, which is almost unheard of in other conflicts. They provide humanitarian relief, vaccine programmes and aid, again, not typical in war. You don’t hear Ukrainians complaining that Russia isn’t giving them enough warning before they drop bombs because simply doesn’t happen at all. There aren’t Uyghur social media influencers complaining about China not organising and protecting their aid from their other Uyghurs or not organising their healthcare well enough because it’s so far outside of the realm of possibility there. The situation in Gaza is indisputably awful, tragic and it must be resolved as soon as possible. But that is “normal” in war and this is by no means the worst war in history.

Well if my government had dropped the equivalent of 2 atomic bombs on a tiny strip of land, had deliberately stopped food, water and medical aid, had destroyed the cultural centres of a people, their hospitals, places of worship (mosques and churches) and education and my president had an arrest for war crimes and crimes against humanity, I would be deeply troubled and ashamed by this. I wouldn't call this a war but, at best ethnic cleansing, at worst genocide,
Believe what you want and refuse to see what the world is seeing but you won't be able to say you didn't know.
I won't unpick your post because don't have the time.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

Dulra · 05/12/2024 15:27

samG76 · 05/12/2024 15:20

I don't think Israelis are massacring anyone in North Gaza. They told people to leave and cleared it. Of course, Hamas didn't have to celebrate Oct 7th and promise a repeat. But there don't seem to be any costs to doing so, as everyone just says that whatever Hamas do doesn't absolve Israel.

Hamas didn't have to celebrate Oct 7th and promise a repeat. But there don't seem to be any costs to doing so
There has been a huge cost to the lives of innocent Palestinians and to the destruction of large parts of Gaza!

as everyone just says that whatever Hamas do doesn't absolve Israel.
No it doesn't absolve Israel of their war crimes why should it?

They told people to leave and cleared it
Yes they did and have said no one will get to return. Ethnic cleansing

Whatsinanamehey · 05/12/2024 15:29

There were some really shocking videos yesterday of Palestinians being shot at as they tried to flee after evacuation orders from the final shelter in Beit Lahyia. It was like something out of a dystopian horror movie.

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:32

SharonEllis · 05/12/2024 08:21

Im not really sure what 'self defence' means leagally in this context and not sure its what most people say is happening.Israel's military objective has always more than self defence as far as I know - its always been to destroy Hamas so that they can't attack Israel again.

You cannot destroy an ideology. You can kill people but you cannot kill beliefs. To defeat terrorism, first you must understand its origines and why some feel the need to take part in terrorist activities. No one is born a terrorist.

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:36

samG76 · 05/12/2024 14:47

The issue no-one seems to consider is how far the contribution of the "victim" can influence the question of genocide. Hamas take the pipes that were sent as aid for a sewage system and use them for weapons, or they loot the aid before it reached the population. Does this affect the Israelis' responsibilities to provide clean water and food ? Hamas have said that they will repeat October 7 "a thousand times". So it's scarcely surprising that the Israelis wish to clear an area close to the border to stop it happening again. If it's a matter of accused of war crimes or being slaughtered in their beds, most Israelis would take the former.

Do you speak for all Israelis?

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:39

SharonEllis · 05/12/2024 14:54

Its a very blatant double standard. Whatever cards Israel are dealt by Hamas they are just expected to suck it up & consistently Hamas are absolved of any responsibility.

They are expected to abide by the international laws they signed up to.
Hamas are responsible for 07/10, the Israeli government for their actions since then.

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:46

What I find interesting is that Led by Donkeys didn't specify where the genocide was happening, Yet everyone assumed that it was in Gaza.
I think this is revealing in so much that most people think of Gaza when the world genocide is mentioned.

Whatsinanamehey · 05/12/2024 15:52

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:46

What I find interesting is that Led by Donkeys didn't specify where the genocide was happening, Yet everyone assumed that it was in Gaza.
I think this is revealing in so much that most people think of Gaza when the world genocide is mentioned.

Everyday it's massacre after massacre, Kamal Adwan hospital is still under Israeli fire with even patients shot at.

This is the moment yesterday when the tents of displaced civilians in mawasi was bombed. Tents! Flimsy tents where civilians including children were murdered in cold blood. I remember the first time Israel did this, there was an international uproar. Now it's so common that it's barely even mentioned. Such are the low standards held of the IDF.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDKnSACsI1s/?igsh=MXNkbHE3ZjZqa3c5ZQ==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDKnSACsI1s?igsh=MXNkbHE3ZjZqa3c5ZQ%3D%3D

ScrollingLeaves · 05/12/2024 16:43

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:39

They are expected to abide by the international laws they signed up to.
Hamas are responsible for 07/10, the Israeli government for their actions since then.

Well explained.

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 16:44

Whatsinanamehey · 05/12/2024 15:52

Everyday it's massacre after massacre, Kamal Adwan hospital is still under Israeli fire with even patients shot at.

This is the moment yesterday when the tents of displaced civilians in mawasi was bombed. Tents! Flimsy tents where civilians including children were murdered in cold blood. I remember the first time Israel did this, there was an international uproar. Now it's so common that it's barely even mentioned. Such are the low standards held of the IDF.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDKnSACsI1s/?igsh=MXNkbHE3ZjZqa3c5ZQ==

Cruelty upon cruelty and the world powers do nothing.
The IDF have no standards. They have been given carte blanche to do as they want. 30 of them have been warned not to go abroad on holidays because they could be arrested for their alleged (so far) war crimes. No arrests I see for their arrests in Israel though!
Read the comments underneath the article.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-idf-warns-30-troops-against-overseas-travel-after-pro-palestinian-groups-file-war-crimes-complaints/

MothToAnInferno · 05/12/2024 16:59

samG76 · 05/12/2024 14:47

The issue no-one seems to consider is how far the contribution of the "victim" can influence the question of genocide. Hamas take the pipes that were sent as aid for a sewage system and use them for weapons, or they loot the aid before it reached the population. Does this affect the Israelis' responsibilities to provide clean water and food ? Hamas have said that they will repeat October 7 "a thousand times". So it's scarcely surprising that the Israelis wish to clear an area close to the border to stop it happening again. If it's a matter of accused of war crimes or being slaughtered in their beds, most Israelis would take the former.

The thing is though we watched Israel at the start of the war target bakery after bakery. We have seen Israel destroy water site after water site. We watched them target solar panels. We watched them destroying these things and now we are supposed to say but Hamas? Why were bakeries bombed if not to stop the people of Gaza from having food? Why have the destroyed more than half of water sites if they want Gazans to have access to water? We have seen what Israel have done and we see what they bear the responsibility for.

Of course Hamas have played a role but Israel have played a very large role too. They have purposefully destroyed infrastructure necessary for life and of course we should talk about that, it's appalling.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/12/2024 19:26

Haaretz:

GAZA: Amnesty International accused Israel of committing genocide in Gaza in a new report, writing that it "found sufficient basis" to make such a conclusion, and that "in looking at the broader picture of Israel's military campaign and the cumulative impact of its policies and acts, genocidal intent is the only reasonable conclusion."

  • The Israeli branch of Amnesty, which operates as a separate NGO from the international body, rejected the report and said that despite the scope of attacks on civilians in Gaza, it is doubtful that "the element of intent in perpetrating the full or partial extermination of the Palestinian population in the framework of the war" has been proven in the report.
  • A small number of Amnesty Israel's members argued that, "according to the available information, it can be determined that Israel is committing or has committed genocide in Gaza."
Moulook31 · 05/12/2024 20:02

Nads0622 · 04/12/2024 18:47

I’m struggling to comprehend what your post is about. People are rightfully angry that the uk where they live is complicit in genocide . We have a right to speak out. I would hope that the UK is not complicit in the situation in Afghanistan. Your post also seems to imply that it’s ok for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to be slaughtered including babies and children because there’s also other bad things happening in the world. we cannot claim to be morally superior in the uk if we’re supporting the worst atrocity in the world at the moment, the genocide !

Well said!

Scirocco · 05/12/2024 20:13

2024onwardsandup · 04/12/2024 18:08

I look forward to their banners about the women and girls of Afghanistan that the uk government (among others) abandoned

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5224119-silent-vigils-for-afghanistan-women-this-weekend

Not Led by Donkeys, but here's a link to a thread about the upcoming silent vigils for the women and girls of Afghanistan.

Silent vigils for Afghanistan women this weekend | Mumsnet

[[https://x.com/WRNAfghanistan/status/1864296088087187584?t=RHlcAkPDaYlALiDhDh9RTA&s=19 Thread of locations for the first silent vigils for Afghan...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5224119-silent-vigils-for-afghanistan-women-this-weekend

Alphaalga · 05/12/2024 23:31

SharonEllis · 05/12/2024 08:21

Im not really sure what 'self defence' means leagally in this context and not sure its what most people say is happening.Israel's military objective has always more than self defence as far as I know - its always been to destroy Hamas so that they can't attack Israel again.

Huh? What part of Israel's launching missiles at schools and hospitals full of innocent kids to make sure they kill the bad guys is making it so hard for you to distinguish between the self defence they're claiming to be engaged in and the genocide they actually are?

10UsernamesNotAvailableTryAnotherOne · 06/12/2024 02:35

samG76 · 05/12/2024 14:47

The issue no-one seems to consider is how far the contribution of the "victim" can influence the question of genocide. Hamas take the pipes that were sent as aid for a sewage system and use them for weapons, or they loot the aid before it reached the population. Does this affect the Israelis' responsibilities to provide clean water and food ? Hamas have said that they will repeat October 7 "a thousand times". So it's scarcely surprising that the Israelis wish to clear an area close to the border to stop it happening again. If it's a matter of accused of war crimes or being slaughtered in their beds, most Israelis would take the former.

If Israel wants a buffer zone, they can have it on THEIR side.

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 07:10

Auvergne63 · 05/12/2024 15:46

What I find interesting is that Led by Donkeys didn't specify where the genocide was happening, Yet everyone assumed that it was in Gaza.
I think this is revealing in so much that most people think of Gaza when the world genocide is mentioned.

When's the last time you saw a protest about the uighyur genocide? Of course it was going to be about gaza.

Nads0622 · 06/12/2024 07:20

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 07:10

When's the last time you saw a protest about the uighyur genocide? Of course it was going to be about gaza.

You don’t seem to be able to grasp why people protest. People protest when they disagree with their governments actions . The uk is complicit with the genocide in Gaza , hence people protesting to try and stop the governments involvement . As far as I know the UK is not complicit with the persecution of Uyghurs in China. You also have to appreciate that in Gaza children and babies are being slaughtered at an alarming rate so
its natural for people with a conscience and a heart to come out and protest ! If you can sleep well at night knowing that this is going on good for you but some of us can’t !

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 07:37

Nads0622 · 06/12/2024 07:20

You don’t seem to be able to grasp why people protest. People protest when they disagree with their governments actions . The uk is complicit with the genocide in Gaza , hence people protesting to try and stop the governments involvement . As far as I know the UK is not complicit with the persecution of Uyghurs in China. You also have to appreciate that in Gaza children and babies are being slaughtered at an alarming rate so
its natural for people with a conscience and a heart to come out and protest ! If you can sleep well at night knowing that this is going on good for you but some of us can’t !

And you don't seem to grasp the point I was making. Clue - read the post I was responding to.

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 08:25

@Nads0622

"As far as I know the UK is not complicit with the persecution of Uyghurs in China."

The majority of solar panels in the UK are made using Uyghur slave labour:

www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2022/08/Clean-dirty-energy-1.pdf

As are supermarkets shoppers putting their shopping above human rights :

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg8n6416yjo.amp

All of which gets conveniently ignored when Israel is not involved.

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 08:29

@Nads0622

"You also have to appreciate that in Gaza children and babies are being slaughtered at an alarming rate so
its natural for people with a conscience and a heart to come out and protest ! If you can sleep well at night knowing that this is going on good for you but some of us can’t !"

But children are being killed at an alarming rate in conflicts across the world such as Sudan or Syria.

So why no protests about those countries or do the lives of Syrian or Sudanese children count for less than the lives of Gazan children in the eyes of the protesters?

SharonEllis · 06/12/2024 08:33

Thank you @1dayatatime. I didn't engage with the content of the post because it was missing the point, but yes of course we are complicit in the genocide of the ughyurs. And anyway, I don't hold with the idea, which is prevalent on this board, that we only care about what happens in countries that are our allies. The whole point of human rights is that they apply across the board and we bring international pressure to bear on those that don't uphold them. Its always messy and inconsistent but the abandonment of the ughyurs, the recent hosting of the qataris etc is pretty shameful.

Lalaloveya · 06/12/2024 08:33

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 08:25

@Nads0622

"As far as I know the UK is not complicit with the persecution of Uyghurs in China."

The majority of solar panels in the UK are made using Uyghur slave labour:

www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2022/08/Clean-dirty-energy-1.pdf

As are supermarkets shoppers putting their shopping above human rights :

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg8n6416yjo.amp

All of which gets conveniently ignored when Israel is not involved.

Interesting to see you seem to support a boycott of some description.

I'm not in the UK so I'm not an expert but the government doesn't seem to support the treatment of this group and it has imposed sanctions. It fully supports Israel's genocidal assault on Gaza.

samG76 · 06/12/2024 09:00

10Usernames "If Israel wants a buffer zone, they can have it on THEIR side"

So Israel has to clear its own territory because a neighbouring state which has carried out one massacre threatens to do so again? I don't think that makes any sense. That's what the Israelis did in the North with Hizbollah but it was clearly a temporary solution. Otherwise your habitable territory would shrink as states made threats against you.

Dulra · 06/12/2024 09:05

1dayatatime · 06/12/2024 08:29

@Nads0622

"You also have to appreciate that in Gaza children and babies are being slaughtered at an alarming rate so
its natural for people with a conscience and a heart to come out and protest ! If you can sleep well at night knowing that this is going on good for you but some of us can’t !"

But children are being killed at an alarming rate in conflicts across the world such as Sudan or Syria.

So why no protests about those countries or do the lives of Syrian or Sudanese children count for less than the lives of Gazan children in the eyes of the protesters?

or do the lives of Syrian or Sudanese children count
Syria, there was massive global support when the conflict in Syria was at its height, huge humanitarian efforts to support the population, huge efforts to evacuate refugees. Syrian refugees were programme refugees which meant they did not have to go through the usual asylum process but were housed and supported immediately, similar to Ukrainian refugees. I find it pretty poor to suggest people don't care, people very much did care, there are many ways to show your support and solidarity, protesting is one action of many. I also remember the huge disinformation propaganda campaign funded by Russia and Syrian government to discredit the White helmets and claim they were all terrorists, part of Al-Qaeda making up the figures to distort the reality of what was happening, sounds very familiar tbh.

Sudan, yes agree a lot more needs to be done I work with a Sudanese community and there is frustration there with the lack of traction this conflict is getting, in saying that their local campaigns have been very well suppprted. I have noticed an uptick recently in awareness and Christmas campaigns here are very much highlighting the dire situation in Sudan

Now ask yourself why you feel the need to us atrocities elsewhere as a point scoring exercise? You accuse others of not caring about children's lives in Sudan and Syria because there is not enough protests but all it says to me is that you care little for the lives of children in Gaza and resent the attention they are getting.