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Conflict in the Middle East

Yes, it's a genocide. Led by Donkeys

156 replies

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:07

I support Israel and I support Palestine. I pray for Peace

“Dear friends,

This morning, we filled the entirety of Parliament Square in London with a banner quoting a leading Israeli Holocaust Professor who says Israel’s assault on Gaza now constitutes a genocide.

Professor Amos Goldberg has researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence for 30 years. In a statement issued to coincide with the Parliament Square protest, the respected author and scholar says: “Yes, it’s a genocide. And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.”

All of our projects are considered carefully as we develop and deliver them, but perhaps none more so than this one because of the seriousness of the indictment. But as Professor Goldberg says, once you are clear in your own mind that a genocide is being committed, it becomes imperative to speak up and name it.

Professor Goldberg is not the only Israeli scholar to say the assault on Gaza is a genocide. Professor Omer Bartov is a Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University in the US. He says: "This is clearly an operation whose goal is to destroy the ability of Palestinians to live in that area as a group. And in my definition, that is genocide."

You can hear Professor Goldberg's words in the film of today's intervention or read his statement in full below.”

My name is Amos Goldberg. I am an Israeli Professor of Holocaust Studies. For nearly 30 years I have researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence.

And I want to tell whoever is willing to listen, that what’s happening now in Gaza is a genocide.

A year ago when October 7th happened, like all Israelis I was in shock. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. 1200 people - more than 800 of them civilians - were killed in one day. Children and the elderly were among those taken hostage. Communities were destroyed. It was outrageous, traumatizing, personal. Like most Israelis, I know people who were killed, who lost loved ones or whose loved ones were taken hostage.

But immediately afterwards came Israel’s response and within weeks thousands of civilians were killed in Gaza. It took me some time to digest what was unfolding before my eyes. It was agonizing to confront that reality. I was reluctant to call it a genocide.

But if you read Raphael Lemkin – the Jewish-Polish legal scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ and was the major driving force behind the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention – what is happening in Gaza now is exactly what he had in mind when he spoke about genocide.

It does not need to look like the Holocaust to be a genocide. Each genocide looks different and not all involve killing of millions or the entire group. The United Nations Genocide Convention explicitly asserts that genocide is the act of deliberately destroying a group in whole or in part. Those are the words.

But there does need to be a clear intent.

And indeed, there are clear indications of intent to destroy Gaza: Israel’s leaders - including the prime minister and the minister of defence - and many high-ranking military officers, media personalities, rabbis as well as ordinary soldiers were very open about what they wanted to achieve. There were countless documented incitements to turn the whole of Gaza into rubble and claims that there are no innocent people living there. A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my 58 years of living here.

Now that vision has been enacted. Tens of thousands of innocent children, women and men have been killed. Over a hundred thousand were wounded. There is a near total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and blocking of humanitarian aid. There are mass graves and reliable testimony of summary executions. Children that were shot by snipers. All the universities and almost all hospitals are gone. Almost all the population is displaced. There have been numerous bombings of civilians in so-called ‘safe zones’. Gaza does not exist anymore. It is completely destroyed. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the stated intentions of Israel’s leadership.

Lemkin - that scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ - described two phases of a genocide. The first is the destruction of the annihilated group and the second is what he called “imposition of the national pattern” of the perpetrator. We are now witnessing the second phase as Israel prepares ethnically cleansed areas for Israeli settlements.

And therefore, I have come to the conclusion that this is exactly what a genocide looks like. We don’t teach about genocides in order to realize it retrospectively. We teach about it in order to prevent it and to stop it.

But like in every other case of genocide in history right now we have mass denial. Both here in Israel and around the world.

But reality cannot be denied.

So yes, it is a genocide.

And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.

- YouTube

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OP posts:
Thread gallery
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2024onwardsandup · 04/12/2024 18:08

I look forward to their banners about the women and girls of Afghanistan that the uk government (among others) abandoned

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:17

2024onwardsandup · 04/12/2024 18:08

I look forward to their banners about the women and girls of Afghanistan that the uk government (among others) abandoned

Whataboutery...

OP posts:
Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 18:28

What are you hoping to achieve with this thread? You don’t seem to have shared your own opinion.

2024onwardsandup · 04/12/2024 18:33

bodydrain · 04/12/2024 18:17

Whataboutery...

No it’s not - Led By Donkeys holds itself out as having a broad remit of holding the uk government to account - so why aren’t the actions (or inactions) re women and girls in Afghanistan a focus but Palestine is. If there next banner reveal is about women and girls In Afghanistan I will
be thrilled to stand corrected

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 18:37

Palestine is perhaps in focus because unlike these other countries, Israel is supposed to be an ally. They are someone our government ought to have some influence on and use it. I am Jewish and it is not 'just antisemitism' to focus on Israel above others.

Yes, some anti-Israel sentiment is simple antisemitism, but it being a Jewish state is not 'the only difference' between Israel and other states that are behaving in this way.

Israel is desecrating the memories of my grandfather's family, 90% of whom were murdered by the Nazis for being Jewish, by committing genocide.

username299 · 04/12/2024 18:38

It's been classed as genocide for a long time. These people are very late to the table.

The Israeli government haven't stopped banging on about destroying Palestine, there's been very clear intent from the beginning.

The world doesn't care, just like it doesn't care about what's going on in China with ethnic cleansing and Hong Kong. Money before morals.

Nads0622 · 04/12/2024 18:47

2024onwardsandup · 04/12/2024 18:33

No it’s not - Led By Donkeys holds itself out as having a broad remit of holding the uk government to account - so why aren’t the actions (or inactions) re women and girls in Afghanistan a focus but Palestine is. If there next banner reveal is about women and girls In Afghanistan I will
be thrilled to stand corrected

I’m struggling to comprehend what your post is about. People are rightfully angry that the uk where they live is complicit in genocide . We have a right to speak out. I would hope that the UK is not complicit in the situation in Afghanistan. Your post also seems to imply that it’s ok for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to be slaughtered including babies and children because there’s also other bad things happening in the world. we cannot claim to be morally superior in the uk if we’re supporting the worst atrocity in the world at the moment, the genocide !

LetThereBeLove · 04/12/2024 18:53

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 18:37

Palestine is perhaps in focus because unlike these other countries, Israel is supposed to be an ally. They are someone our government ought to have some influence on and use it. I am Jewish and it is not 'just antisemitism' to focus on Israel above others.

Yes, some anti-Israel sentiment is simple antisemitism, but it being a Jewish state is not 'the only difference' between Israel and other states that are behaving in this way.

Israel is desecrating the memories of my grandfather's family, 90% of whom were murdered by the Nazis for being Jewish, by committing genocide.

Israel is not desecrating the memories of my mother's family who died in concentration camps.
Meanwhile OP, for balance, I hope to see you at Sundays march against antisemitism in London. Pigs might fly I guess.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/12/2024 18:58

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 18:28

What are you hoping to achieve with this thread? You don’t seem to have shared your own opinion.

I think they were hoping to achieve what indeed they did achieve for me at least : that people like me - a person not quite clear about what genocide means, yet very shocked by what is happening to a people at the hands of a U.S. backed liberal democracy - can gain clarity thanks to this analysis.

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 19:02

ScrollingLeaves · 04/12/2024 18:58

I think they were hoping to achieve what indeed they did achieve for me at least : that people like me - a person not quite clear about what genocide means, yet very shocked by what is happening to a people at the hands of a U.S. backed liberal democracy - can gain clarity thanks to this analysis.

I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn’t asking what THEY were hoping to achieve, I was asking what YOU were hoping to achieve. An info dump without any options or questions isn’t a great strategy for a meaningful discussion. Do you want people to copy and paste speeches from experts who disagree? Criticise the content of the speech? Or did you find it persuasive?

SharonEllis · 04/12/2024 19:12

username299 · 04/12/2024 18:38

It's been classed as genocide for a long time. These people are very late to the table.

The Israeli government haven't stopped banging on about destroying Palestine, there's been very clear intent from the beginning.

The world doesn't care, just like it doesn't care about what's going on in China with ethnic cleansing and Hong Kong. Money before morals.

It hasn't been classed as a genocide at all. A lot of people have decided it is. That's a different thing. This is just misinformation.

ladsladzladse · 04/12/2024 19:12

I would hope that the UK is not complicit in the situation in Afghanistan.

This probably isn't the place for it, but of COURSE the UK is deeply and utterly complicit in the situation in Afghanistan!

And again in Palestine, but people will do anything in the world to deny it. Just look at this here on this thread: what is happening to a people at the hands of a U.S. backed liberal democracy. If the USA ceased to exist tomorrow, would UK's Israel policy change? Not if you read or listen to the reasons that UK Parliamentarians of many parties have said that they support Israel in the current geopolitical situation.

As for Led By Donkeys, I like their work on Brexit but I definitely think of them as almost if not totally UK focused. It makes sense maybe for them to lobby the UK Govt/Parliament and raise public awareness about the UK's Israel policy, but what they're saying about Israel - the content and details, not the transparent slant - is no news to any Israeli. Focus on what you can do and what you may be able to influence/convince your community or your government to do, not what you think everybody else should do.

SharonEllis · 04/12/2024 19:24

As this thread shows there are some knowledgeable people who believe it is genocide and some who don't. There are some Jewish people who do and some who don't. I'd be surprised if anyone here really has the evidence or legal knowledge to be so definitive but what we do know is that no court has decided, on the basis of robust evidence, that it is. That doesn't mean that the war isn't horrific but the way people label it as a genocide is usually a way to shut conversation down. If you raise factual issues you get shouted down for defending genocide. It destroys any possibility of meaningful conversation. Anyone can see that the war is awful, that people are suffering and that the hostages need to be released and the war ended. I ceratainly don't see Donkeys' performative gesture as anything other than bandwagon-jumping performativism.

OctoberOctopus · 04/12/2024 19:24

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. It can be carried out through a number of acts, including:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life that will lead to the group's physical destruction
Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
Genocide is an international crime, as defined in the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The convention requires signatories to prevent genocide and prosecute its perpetrators.
However, there are different ways to conceptualize genocide, including:
Academic social science: Genocide is defined more broadly and doesn't require proof of intent.
International politics and policy: Genocide is defined around prevention policy and intervention, and may be used to refer to "large-scale violence against civilians".
Public usage: Genocide is often used as a stand-in term for the greatest evils, or as a term for mass murder on a grand scale.
Some examples of events that have been considered genocide include:
The 1995 massacre at Srebrenica in Bosnia
The Soviet man-made famine of Ukraine (1932-33)
The Indonesian invasion of East Timor (1975)
The Khmer Rouge killings in Cambodia in the 1970s

Echobelly · 04/12/2024 19:26

LetThereBeLove · 04/12/2024 18:53

Israel is not desecrating the memories of my mother's family who died in concentration camps.
Meanwhile OP, for balance, I hope to see you at Sundays march against antisemitism in London. Pigs might fly I guess.

You are welcome to feel how you feel about it and I'm not up for stopping anyone protesting antisemitism. I don't attend these things as I think too many of them do get supported by non-Jewish people who don't care about Jews and want to use them as cover sentiment against other groups. Just as Gaza protest can harbour a minority who just want to use it to get at Jews.

Look, I'm not here to be a pick-me Jew for antisemites, for what it's worth I do by best, as often the only Jewish voice in the room in left wing spaces online, to explain how much Israel means to many Jews and that I'm not the 'right kind of Jew' to Israel supporting 'wrong kind of Jews' and people shouldn't judge Jews who stand by Israel because I want to diffuse antisemitism and also fight the idea that 'Oh the Israelis are just white European colonialists who should go back home'

I'm sort of like the BBC in people who are avowedly Zionist would probably call me antizionist, but antizionists would probably call me Zionist. It's a difficult old world for the community and it's hard for us to talk to one another across the divide but I do try.

OctoberOctopus · 04/12/2024 19:27

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-whats-happening-gaza-is-not-genocide-2024-05-20/

How many differences of opinions would you like?

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 19:29

OctoberOctopus · 04/12/2024 19:27

You haven’t shared YOUR opinion! Dropping links is not engaging in discussion.

OctoberOctopus · 04/12/2024 19:30

So who are 'Led by Donkeys'

'Led By Donkeys is a British political campaign group established in December 2018 as an anti-Brexit group, but which has also criticised other actions of the Conservative government. After the 2024 election of a Labour government, it defined itself as an "accountability project" and stated that the Labour government was also fair game.'

Conservative Party (UK) - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)

OctoberOctopus · 04/12/2024 19:31

Purspectiveplease · 04/12/2024 19:29

You haven’t shared YOUR opinion! Dropping links is not engaging in discussion.

I thought that was the point of this thread. Op dumped a piece from Led By Donkeys and that was it.

OctoberOctopus · 04/12/2024 19:32

I don't think my opinion matters in the scheme of things. There are a variety of opinions from different sources, who really cares what I think.

Conflicts are awful and I wish it would end.