Amsterdam

[EricInk]

I can't believe how unbalanced the media reporting is of the events last night

The maccabi fans were behaving atrociously and inciting conflict the entire day, pulling down flags, chanting 'fuck Palestine' and intimidating Dutch Arabs

It's not meant to mean anything, don't mean to be patronising, apologies if that's how it seemed.

I agree, they should be released immediately, ceasefire or no ceasefire. I also think Israel should immediately stop the bombing, hostages released or not released.

So you think the taking of hostages was necessary and justified as it’s the only way to stop the Israeli assault on Gaza that was the result of the Hamas attacks of 7/10?

There’s been more than one comment in this thread about posters tying themselves in knots in order to justify claims of pogroms/antisemitism/support of Israel etc. Can you not see you’re doing exactly that? You just said it’s unreasonable to expect Hamas to release the hostages. That in itself is a mind-boggling statement. Any agreement between parties results in the parties having to act based on the faith they have that the other party is going to carry out its obligations. So when you say it’s unreasonable for Hamas to act on Israel’s pledge you’re saying that a negotiated deal is impossible as you seem to want one side to do all the conceding.

This war is bigger than just the hostages. The hostages are not the only reason the devastation of the last year has happened. 7/10 changed everything and Hamas knew exactly what the likely reaction would be. Hamas killed 1200 people and you want them to have a bargaining chip? Mass murder is not a negotiation technique. Hamas had other options rather than carry out a massive terror attack. They’ve contrived to board Israel for the last year, their members have said more than once that they will carry out 7/10 as many times as needed to kill all the Jews, their leaders have said every child, woman and elderly person will be sacrificed in the furtherance of annihilating Israel and you think it’s unreasonable for Hamas to unconditionally release the hostages. They didn’t take hostages to use as a bargaining chip against an unwarranted Israeli attack. They started a war and in the process took hostages as they knew Israel would fight to get them back.

Israel isn’t going to ceasefire until the hostages are released and Hamas isn’t going to release the hostages until there’s a ceasefire. As you think it’s reasonable for Hamas to keep the hostages, what do you think Israel should do?

@LetThereBeLove I’m sorry for some of the stuff you’ve had to deal with here. I know engaging is a choice, but doing so isn’t always pleasant. I admire your fortitude and for sharing your family’s history.

@Lolapusht
As you think it’s reasonable for Hamas to keep the hostages, what do you think Israel should do?

Israel should withdraw and Hamas should return the hostages...... sorry, didn't I make that clear ?
That's all.

It's not meant to mean anything, don't mean to be patronising, apologies if that's how it seemed

No worries, Ken. It’s not always easy to read intent.

Thank you x.
I share my history because I'm at an age where I have fewer years in front of me than behind me. There are hardly any first hand survivors left and my generation is not far behind.
We need these histories told in order that the atrocities families like mine experienced are never repeated. Sadly what is happening now in London and other European cities, in our universities both here and America, illustrates that Jew hate is still around, under the surface, just waiting to be ignited.

Might as well deal with the rest of the stuff.
@Lolapusht wrote thus....
So you think the taking of hostages was necessary and justified as it’s the only way to stop the Israeli assault on Gaza that was the result of the Hamas attacks of 7/10?
That was a question, wasn't it ? No, I don't think the taking of hostages was necessary and justified.

There’s been more than one comment in this thread about posters tying themselves in knots in order to justify claims of pogroms/antisemitism/support of Israel etc. Can you not see you’re doing exactly that?

No, I don't think I'm tying myself in knots, or contradicting myself.

You just said it’s unreasonable to expect Hamas to release the hostages.

Yes I did, but that was only half the statement. You placed a full stop where once there wasn't one. Try to read it all the words ( that's all the way up to the little dot at the end) to see the context.

That in itself is a mind-boggling statement. Any agreement between parties results in the parties having to act based on the faith they have that the other party is going to carry out its obligations.

Indeed...... at last we can agree.

So when you say it’s unreasonable for Hamas to act on Israel’s pledge you’re saying that a negotiated deal is impossible as you seem to want one side to do all the conceding.

No..I want both to happen simultaneously.

This war is bigger than just the hostages. The hostages are not the only reason the devastation of the last year has happened. 7/10 changed everything and Hamas knew exactly what the likely reaction would be. Hamas killed 1200 people and you want them to have a bargaining chip?

NO, of course I don't want them to have a bargaining chip. But that is what they have and that is what has to be worked with.

Mass murder is not a negotiation technique. Hamas had other options rather than carry out a massive terror attack. They’ve contrived to board Israel for the last year, their members have said more than once that they will carry out 7/10 as many times as needed to kill all the Jews, their leaders have said every child, woman and elderly person will be sacrificed in the furtherance of annihilating Israel and you think it’s unreasonable for Hamas to unconditionally release the hostages. They didn’t take hostages to use as a bargaining chip against an unwarranted Israeli attack. They started a war and in the process took hostages as they knew Israel would fight to get them back.

I'm really not sure where to start with any of that, so I won't.

Israel isn’t going to ceasefire until the hostages are released and Hamas isn’t going to release the hostages until there’s a ceasefire. As you think it’s reasonable for Hamas to keep the hostages, what do you think Israel should do?
I've done that bit in a previous post.

@mouthpipette wonderfully patronising response, really helps the debate.

No, you didn’t make yourself clear. You said it was unrealistic to expect Hamas to release the hostages on Israel’s pledge they’ll withdraw then go on to say your solution is that Israel should withdraw and Hamas should release the hostages.

I really can’t be bothered engaging further as it’s clearly futile.

@Lolapusht

wonderfully patronising response, (I'm glad you appreciated it) really helps the debate.
Well, you put question marks at the end of some your statements, so I attempted to answer with, I hope, some degree of clarity.

No, you didn’t make yourself clear. You said it was unrealistic to expect Hamas to release the hostages on Israel’s pledge they’ll withdraw then go on to say your solution is that Israel should withdraw and Hamas should release the hostages.
I really can’t be bothered engaging further as it’s clearly futile.
I feel much the same. That's two things we can agree on.

To bring the thread back on topic: the Amsterdam police today announced that the violence was STARTED BY THE ISRAELIS.

Anybody seen that on the news? Nope? Well there's video of the police chief saying it. In Dutch. Shockingly, the media portrayed an absolutely incomplete representation of the truth. They've made Jewish people feel unsafe, when they weren't, and fuelled Islamophobic propaganda, as is evident on this thread.

Time for apologies, I'd say. And maybe some self-reflection.

Time for apologies, I'd say. And maybe some self-reflection.

The violence against Israelis and anyone suspected of being Jewish was pre-planned and organised.
Maybe apologise for minimising a pogrom.

Or is it okay now to beat people in the streets and run them over because they've chanted some shit and burned some flags? Because London will get interesting on Saturdays in future, in which case.

Surely we can agree that genocides against any group are evil and should be universally condemned. I would have hoped that Never Again should apply to any genocide, and that we'd learn from the most hideous and unimaginably brutal genocide from which the phrase emerged.

Yes we can all agree genocides are bad and nobody is saying they aren't but all killings, all wars are not genocide. And all have specifics that need to be understood. To use Never Again in another context only makes sense if you think it bears very strong comparison to the Holocaust. Because that literally is what it means. The Holocaust must never happen again. The current war cant possibly do that precisely because it is war, which the Holocaust most certainly was not, this round started by Oct 7th which was itself genocidal. There is no comparison, however awful this war is and to make the comparison minimises the Holocaust. Its all a bit 'All lives matter'. Im sure you all understand why 'all lives matter' was so offensive and you listened when a black person told you why it was offensive. Well, maybe you could all listen when the children of Holocaust survivors tell you applying 'Never Again' to any situation is offensive. Instead people argue with them?

Mass murder is not a negotiation technique.
The irony of this statement!

I have posted links, regarding this. Two different persons filmed the events.
One of them, a journalist, is saying that her video has been edited and then published to distort the facts. She has gone to the police.
The video from the other clearly shows some Maccabi fans arming themselves with whatever they can find to use as weapons. This was filmed before any violence erupted. Two police vans are seen, doing nothing to stop this.
I am in no way excusing the violence that followed but to portray the Maccabi fans as nothing but innocents in this is wrong.
Antisemitism and islamophobia have no place in our society. Both should be condemned equally.

@SharonEllis I've always thought "Never again" referred to Jews, but then I always thought that Nazis only targeted Jews and didn't know about Romani people, LGBT or other groups until comparatively recently. That aspect has probably only been common knowledge since the 21st century and that's due to a lot of work by various Holocaust educators. The definition of genocide broadened around the same time and we can now look at Armenia, Bosnia, Rwanda and further back to the Belgian Congo and call all of those genocide.
The mechanised and methodical aspect of what the Nazis did is what sets it apart, but somewhere along the line Never Again seems to have broadened -and at the same time crystallised -so that while we are all looking for evil Germans goosestepping in fancy uniforms, mechanised evil has crept across the planet like a cancer.

LGBT or other groups

I really dislike the use of the term "LGBT" in this context. Yes the Nazis persecuted and murdered homosexuals, and this is hardly recent knowledge. I really dislike trans people attempting to appropriate this - there's plenty of pictures of Nazi officers having a jolly jape in women's clothing.

So Oct 7th is genocidal but what's happening in Gaza isn't?

While thousands of others (including gays, people of colour, Romanies etc) than Jews were exterminated by the Nazis and their supporters in countries other than Germany I repeat - SIX MILLION Jewish men, women and children were slaughtered for being Jewish.

You spend a whole thread rightly criticising what happened to Jewish people in Amsterdam and then suggest that what is happening in Gaza is just a war. I am sure if what was happening to Palestinians in Gaza was happening to Jewish people you would not be so dismissive. You have said numerous times you've no skin in the game but your bias and views on Palestinians is clear. It's not just a war it is, to many, a genocide stop minimising.

@LetThereBeLove I think you have misinterpreted what I am trying to say. Everyone knows about the Nazis and their crimes, but as the full horror story is revealed the term has been broadened and now Never Again encompasses more than WW2.
Here's a link to the events of the Belgian Congo where it's believed over 8 million people were killed.

www.thecollector.com/congolese-genocide-colonized-congo/

I think people can just be incredibly evil to others when they have absolute power.

@Hunglikeapolevaulter what a distasteful comment. Are LGBT people less human than Jewish people? They suffered in the Holocaust. Do not deny it!

I've always thought "Never again" referred to Jews, but then I always thought that Nazis only targeted Jews and didn't know about Romani people, LGBT or other groups until comparatively recently. That aspect has probably only been common knowledge since the 21st century

I remember studying the holocaust at school in the early 1990s. It was common knowledge that some other groups were targeted....albeit not on the same scale. Just because you didn't know something, don't assume that everyone else didn't too

@Comedycook actually now you mention it I've generally associated Never Again with Remembrance Day and WW1.
It's a broad term which is pretty useless, really. We can't appropriate absolutely everything for Jewish people nor should we wish to. There can be more than one thing happening at once.