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Conflict in the Middle East

How many more will Israel kill?

337 replies

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 15:20

Nearly a 100 people reportedly killed in the north of Gaza today from a strike in Beit Lahia. Many of the dead are small children with some of the footage the most shocking I have seen. Dead children still trapped under the rubble and countless more injured. How can they continue to kill like this? How can this still be justified as self defence? How can such callous disregard for human life be condoned?

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Whatsinanamehey · 31/10/2024 18:27

2024onwardsandup · 31/10/2024 18:21

@Whatsinanamehey how much value does Hamas give to Palestinian life?

Are we arming or supporting Hamas?? Are we allies with Hamas? Is our government excusing Hamas atrocities??

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Whatsinanamehey · 31/10/2024 18:29

Israel is acting like a rogue state! A pariah state. A state who inflict civilians with terrorist tactics.

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Dulra · 31/10/2024 18:31

2024onwardsandup · 31/10/2024 18:21

@Whatsinanamehey how much value does Hamas give to Palestinian life?

None so it is imperative we do

Lalaloveya · 31/10/2024 18:32

2024onwardsandup · 31/10/2024 18:21

@Whatsinanamehey how much value does Hamas give to Palestinian life?

What a pathetic post, given what you're responding to.

Usernamesareboring1 · 31/10/2024 18:35

2024onwardsandup · 31/10/2024 18:21

@Usernamesareboring1 worse for Palestinians Jews arabs and ultimately people living in the west

oh also the poor long suffering people of iran

that does not mean that Netanyahu should not be removed and the hard right in Israel removed from power

Can you explain clearly how it would be worse for Palestinians if Israel stopped being supplied with the bombs they are dropping indiscriminately instead of negotiating.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 31/10/2024 18:56

I don't know why anyone is pretending the Israeli government cares about the hostage, in reality. They don't. They will sacrifice them, and they are already.

Daftasabroom · 31/10/2024 18:56

@2024onwardsandup a lot of the rhetoric here and amongst the ostensibly social justice supporters in the west - whether or not consciously or not - is underscored by a support for Hamas aims in Israel

Oh please. This is an Islamophobic straw man. Don't misinterpret the arguments people are making to reinforce your prejudice.

Daftasabroom · 31/10/2024 19:07

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Fordian · 31/10/2024 19:38

So.

How do people think Israel should have responded to Oct 7?

Were you on the streets on Oct 8 demanding that the UN must make Gaza return the hostages? In order to stop the possibility of this escalation?

Usernamesareboring1 · 31/10/2024 19:42

Fordian · 31/10/2024 19:38

So.

How do people think Israel should have responded to Oct 7?

Were you on the streets on Oct 8 demanding that the UN must make Gaza return the hostages? In order to stop the possibility of this escalation?

"Gaza" didn't take the hostages but what a way to prove the point that some see and approve of collective punishment of the people of Gaza for the crimes of Hamas.
We are also so far past the "they made us do it" excuse cutting it. Every discussion on what Israel is doing has to be detailed into what Hamas maybe could do or what Israel should be doing anything but face what they're doing.

GhostCicada · 31/10/2024 20:00

Fordian · 31/10/2024 19:38

So.

How do people think Israel should have responded to Oct 7?

Were you on the streets on Oct 8 demanding that the UN must make Gaza return the hostages? In order to stop the possibility of this escalation?

Are you saying that you agree with everything Israel are doing?

BringThemHome · 01/11/2024 00:28

@Daftasabroom

"You mean the Palestinian hostages held by Israel? Or do you mean all hostages?"

The hostages taken from Israel on 7 October. I'm not aware of any Palestinian hostages, terrorists and criminals that are in prison yes, but not hostages.

Lalaloveya · 01/11/2024 00:33

BringThemHome · 01/11/2024 00:28

@Daftasabroom

"You mean the Palestinian hostages held by Israel? Or do you mean all hostages?"

The hostages taken from Israel on 7 October. I'm not aware of any Palestinian hostages, terrorists and criminals that are in prison yes, but not hostages.

This attitude (or maybe genuine ignorance?) is depressing at this stage of the conflict.

Scirocco · 01/11/2024 00:39

BringThemHome · 01/11/2024 00:28

@Daftasabroom

"You mean the Palestinian hostages held by Israel? Or do you mean all hostages?"

The hostages taken from Israel on 7 October. I'm not aware of any Palestinian hostages, terrorists and criminals that are in prison yes, but not hostages.

You aren't aware of the many people, including children, currently held in prison under 'administrative detention', who have not been charged with any crime, let alone tried or convicted? Or the people abducted and held in detention centres, without charge, but subjected to treatment ranging from the sonewhat inhumane right through to torture and rape? Or the people, including children, serving extremely long sentences entirely disproportionate to the crimes of which they were convicted by less-than-impartial legal processes. Actual children being tried in military courts, with 'evidence' obtained under torture considered admissible and legal representation and defence for defendants considered unimportant?

That must be nice, not to know about those things.

shittestusernameever · 01/11/2024 01:25

They need to give the hostages back.

Interlaken · 01/11/2024 06:25

All the evidence suggests that once al the hostages are returned Israel will escalate the rate of genocide.

That leads me to think that you are either ok with the genocide of Palestinians, or you you don’t want to accept the stated intentions of the Israeli government.

Do you think that October 7th (disgusting, illegal and murderous) merits genocide and the confiscation of land as a response?

AccountCreateUsername · 01/11/2024 07:35

Interlaken I’ve concluded that sadly there are quite a few people who are ok with this genocide. You see it justified on here all the time.

I believe it’s a waste of time and energy to engage with them. How do you get through to people who have such very different values regarding the sanctity of human life?

Genocide and collective punishment is wrong and illegal, do you think some of the posters here care that’s Israel is committing genocide? I believe they don’t give a shit.

Scirocco · 01/11/2024 07:53

A couple of links about Palestinians held by Israel.

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/detainees_and_prisoners

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-subjected

Someone earlier described people held by Israel as 'terrorists and criminals'. According to the IPS's own figures, the majority of Palestinians held by them have not been convicted of a crime. However, the clever use of terminology and propaganda is used to imply guilt. Even the term 'detainee' implies guilt, jumping straight past the important principles of justice such as "innocent until proven guilty" to an assumption of guilt on the basis of being a Palestinian imprisoned by Israel. Two of the primary reasons for having large numbers of Palestinians imprisoned in such circumstances are: firstly, for hostage negotiations; and secondly, to encourage 'compliance' out of fear of what could happen to loved ones who have been taken away and locked away by Israeli forces. Both of these reasons mean that the term hostage is applicable to them, too.

SharonEllis · 01/11/2024 08:23

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This is a deliberately offensive thing to say & you know is not true. What are you trying to achieve by making such a comparison ? Say what you mean about specific things you object to about the Israeli government. But its lazy, offensive, inaccurate & ahistorical to make comparisons with 1930s fascism.

Limesodaagain · 01/11/2024 08:46

@Daftasabroom
It undermines your legitimate points about the actions of the Israeli government when you make comparisons to 1930’s Nazi Germany ( and talk of lebensraum etc)
There have been any number of events in the world that you could use as comparison but to reference the Holocaust is deeply offensive to people who might otherwise agree with some of your points.
Please do not refer ( even obliquely ) to the Holocaust when you are criticising the Israeli government. It does come across as very anti semitic and doesn’t help your argument.

Usernamesareboring1 · 01/11/2024 08:53

@SharonEllis @Limesodaagain

Is it also anti semetic when the comparisons to 1930s facism is made by Israeli Jewish political scientists? Or the Holocaust survivors who compare it to their experiences? Or when Smotrich refers to himself as a fascist?
People have explained their reasons for the comparison - the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, detaining them in camp, they are numbering them, prominent settlers supported by the government talk of how they "all need to be killed". Perhaps instead of just shutting it down by saying any mention of the similarities between the current Israeli regime and 1930s facism is antisemitic you could actually argue against the point instead of telling people what they can't say by trying to suggest they're being antisemitic when they've done nothing of the sort.

Daftasabroom · 01/11/2024 09:01

SharonEllis · 01/11/2024 08:23

This is a deliberately offensive thing to say & you know is not true. What are you trying to achieve by making such a comparison ? Say what you mean about specific things you object to about the Israeli government. But its lazy, offensive, inaccurate & ahistorical to make comparisons with 1930s fascism.

I've actually thought long and hard before posting that. But, I really do think there are many parallels, across the world, with the 1930s and particularly right now with Israel. I think it's hugely disturbing for all those in the region.

I fully realize that much is rooted in European imperial and colonial geopolitics, from the pogroms, the rise of nationalism and communism, WW1, WW2 and of course the Holocaust.

All the ingredients have been there for years, decades , arguably since the 19thc.

Israel is a western imperial colonial project. The whys and wherefores are obviously complex, but whichever way you look it, the creation of Israel is based on the displacement of the existing Arab population, the Palestinians. Understandably they didn't agree to being forcibly displaced and still harbor massive resentment because of it.

From day one Israel has taken every opportunity to expand into Palestinian land. Overt racism and colonisation along with apartheid has pushed Israel increasingly to the right.

The persecution of a people based purely on ethnicity, the expansionism, the genocide, the ethnic cleansing. The support from states that should know better. The enabling, appeasement and apologists. It all echos 1930s Europe. The actions of the current Israel government are those of an ultra right wing nationalist government.

It isn't lazy, offensive, inaccurate & ahistorical to make comparisons with 1930s fascism, it's absolutely terrifying and has the potential to drag the whole world into war.

We have to face up to this and we must learn lessons from the past, however unpalatable that may be.

Limesodaagain · 01/11/2024 09:05

I think we need to be careful about the language we use .
There are Jewish people living in this country who are deeply affected by this sort of rhetoric and are worried about the rise in anti semitism.

https://x.com/HeidiBachram/status/1850957469326938520

Whatsinanamehey · 01/11/2024 09:05

What's this if it's not 1930's fascism? Call a spade a spade, even if it is uncomfortable for you

A U.N. office said Israel’s detention and treatment of detainees might amount to torture. It estimated thousands had been detained and held in “horrific” conditions. Some were freed wearing only diapers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html

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How many more will Israel kill?
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