Do You See the Conflict in the Middle East as a Religious War or a Land Grab?

[Oodiks]

Is it a religious war, with Iran, Hezbollah, the Houthis, &c supporting Hamas aims of destroying the 'Zionist Project', aka the Jewish homeland, and Global Jihad, or is it a land grab by Israel?

What does that have to do with what I said? Was the same thing said then or not?

There are evangelical American 'Christians' who believe that the existence of Israel is necessary for the second coming of the messiah.

There are some very extreme Jews, even within Israel, who do not believe in the existence of Israel.

Funny old world.

Israeli citizens attack Palestinians every single day! Yet you conveniently forget that. They attack them because they have the full backing of the state. Every single day Palestinians are attacked and terrorised by Israelis! Palestinian children can't even go to school sometimes because of Israeli terror and attacks.

You are equating one with the other so should at least know what you're talking about.

Yep. This.

Israel couldn't give a damn about the hostages.

Just plopping one of my occasional reminders that this war is 3,000 years old (or older, depending on your interpretation of recovered tablets).

The Gaza Strip is where Philistia was. If you aren't familiar with the Biblical bad-mouthing of its people, you'll still be aware that 'Philistine' today means an ignorant yob with no appreciation for culture. The Philistines weren't yobs - Philistia was such a prosperous region, producing precious things like purple dye and coloured glass, that other powers were constantly fighting for control of it. These included the Israelites.

I always thought the god of the Torah forbade the Israelites to overwhelm Philistia, but I must have missed some nuances because they've been at it for millennia!

Also see Palestine = Canaan -> Israel. Philistia was eventually squashed out of existence, but its people migrated further south into coastal Canaan and later to North Africa.

The entire history of the Israelites, as drummed into most of us at school, is about destroying neighbouring civilisations to take their land and wealth. It's fair to protest that it was the main business of all governments back then, though not all were quite as brutal. Cities and peoples were represented by their gods, so killing a population was the exact equivalent of killing their gods.

Though the world's changed radically since the early iron age, it doesn't look like people's thinking has kept up. The gods are fewer and bigger now, providing excuses for even bigger wars.

[TLDR: It's about land; excused by religion; escalation of ancient ongoing rivalry.]

Half of Palestinians are under 18 and couldn't have voted for Hamas. There are millions of Palestinians and they didn't all commit atrocities. You'll be dragging that poll out again next.

You're absolutely determined to believe the Israeli government is correct in 'cleansing the infection'. You refuse to believe that these are human beings who don't deserve this.

No, I was not. Please read carefully and stop making assumptions.

It's easy to accuse me of being sick when you are so blinded by everyday Israeli atrocities against ordinary Palestinins. Like normal men and women being shot and attacked who are simply trying to pick olives from their own land.

You're justifying a genocide. Shameful.

What do you call this if it isn't a terrorist attack on Palestinians by Israelis? Yet you choose to ignore all of this as if it all just started on Oct 7th.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huwara_rampage

Or this?

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/12/middleeast/west-bank-village-stormed-by-israeli-settlers-intl

Have you not heard of the systemic sexual abuse of children in Israeli detention facilities? The burning of homes by settlers protected by the idf, sometimes with people inside, the taking of children from their beds and putting them into indefinite detention often with no charges where they are more often than not abused emotionally, physically and sexually. All of this is systemic and 'regular'.

Look at this from February 2023. Israelis marauding through a village, armed burning homes and businesses to the ground under the protection of the IDF.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64757990.amp

You already know what the answer is: self defence.

If Israelis regularly marauded through Gaza raping women, burning families, kidnapping babies, and filming it, we'd be having a very different discussion.

For all the atrocities we do see the Israelis committing against Palestinians, we don’t know the half of what they’re up to, as they are doing their level best to prevent anyone from going in to see the full picture. From the information that is coming out of Gaza, they certainly are marauding, burning families, killing babies, and taking triumphant photographs of themselves and each other. Pretty sure that rape and filming of brutality will have happened too.

Don’t try and compare what was a hideous attack by a terrorist organisation a year ago with what has become the wholesale slaughter of a people by the state of Israel ever since.

I literally asked, "are you referencing the horrors of the holocaust" and you replied "yes", and went off.

I saw a video of the IDF gang raping a Palestinian in a detention centre recently , don't play dumb

Land grab.

Religious from what the Iranians, Hamas, Houthis etc say themselves.

The houthis are interesting, the guy who created them is dead but they come from a hashemite family who believe they have a right to rule Yemen as descendants of Mohammed. They despised the pan arab nationalist project and reject parliamentary democracy.

Iran is theistic, again, rule by religious authority. Hezb actually want to be part of a shia area ruled by ayatollahs, they actually went and asked permission from Khomeini’s to set up an armed wing. Pretty fucking religious in my book,

I think people in the west always think it’s political because they lack the kind of faith others sometimes have. This is political Islam, Shia style.

Personally I think Palestinians have been used as a football in the pursuit of these games, if you actually care about peoples lives then you push for a two state solution. What you don’t do is fund and support attacks that are likely to result in massive reprisals.

Nationalist conflict.
But it's a bit of a myth that Muslims and Jews simply lived peacefully until Zionism. Things ebbed and flowed depending on the times and th attitude of the ruler in charge. It was never as bad as Europe, but there was never true peace and equality, either. Today the descendants of Jews from Arab countries are largely right wing voters.

The IDF, 'settlers' and others...

Are documented to engage in the sexual abuse, including rape, of Palestinian women, men and children.

Have burned families alive and burned down the homes of many more.

Abduct and detain Palestinians, with a wide age range. They try Palestinian children in military courts (if they haven't shot them before that).

Occupy and annex land belonging to Palestinians.

And more. Much, much more.

The problem is men.

And they film it too..

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/06/world/middleeast/israel-idf-soldiers-war-social-media-video.html

It’s very obvious what that poster meant and you’re being clearly disingenuous by trying to twist what she said into something else.

You clearly think Palestinians = bad and deserve everything they have suffered the past year and more, but at least make more of an effort if you want to persuade posters to come to your way of thinking rather than twist what posters say.