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Conflict in the Middle East

Do You See the Conflict in the Middle East as a Religious War or a Land Grab?

169 replies

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 20:34

Is it a religious war, with Iran, Hezbollah, the Houthis, &c supporting Hamas aims of destroying the 'Zionist Project', aka the Jewish homeland, and Global Jihad, or is it a land grab by Israel?

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Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:15

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Lalaloveya · 28/10/2024 23:18

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I can't believe this post. Horrific.

GhostCicada · 28/10/2024 23:19

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I actually don't think Israel plan to 'grab' Gaza, in that they gave that land to 'Palestinians' in 2005/6. Many Israelis had to leave land on that day.

Giving the land to Palestinians(I'm not sure why you wrote 'Palestinians') is a stretch but Netanyahu was vehemently against the withdrawal of settlements in Gaza. He resigned as finance minister he felt so strongly against it. If Netanyahu was in charge then as he is now that never would have happened.

sprigatito · 28/10/2024 23:21

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It's demonstrably nonsense that Hamas started the conflict out of the blue in October 2023. 2023 was already the deadliest year for Palestinian children before October according to the UN. 174 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank in the first half of 2023, and that doesn't include Gaza at all.

Nobody believes that schtick any more. Israel has been raping, murdering and brutalising Palestinians for decades. They called it "mowing the grass" ffs.

Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:21

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Lalaloveya · 28/10/2024 23:24

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Why don't you say what you mean instead of asking goady questions?

Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:24

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 21:05

They have also passed a bill to ban UNWRA which will only serve to speed up the deaths of civilians who are already suffering one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes. The more people that are dead, the easier it is to steal the land.

To be fair, UNRWA need banning. They are a toxic, malign force at work indoctrinating kids, controlling the populace into compliance.

Palestinians deserve better.

politickie · 28/10/2024 23:25

It's hard to vote here because I think it's a combination of factors. It is both, it is neither, and it is a whole lot of other things as well.

Calling Hamas' initial attack part of a "religious war" almost makes it sound more meaningful than it was, because I can't see it as anything besides a vicious terrorist attack. I don't think there was any reason behind it but destruction, politically-motivated antisemitic destruction. That said, I think Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas have framed the ongoing conflict as a religious war. It still feels a little inaccurate to say, I suppose because while antisemitism is an inherent part of their extremist religious ideology, it's difficult for me to think of antisemitism as a religious belief as opposed to a racist concept. The only thing making it "religious" is that Hamas/Hezbollah say it's religious, and I try not to give weight to their ideas. It's certainly not a wider representation of Islam as a religion. Could it be argued that Hamas want a land-grab of the territory Israel have taken command of over the last several decades? Yes, but I think that's a motive of their operation as a whole and only a background motivation of their continued strikes on Israel, which seem to be intended to terrify Israeli civilians, retaliate against IDF actions, and further drive the conflict. On the ground level, I imagine a good amount of those recruited into the lower levels of the Hamas military view it as self-defence, even though that obviously isn't the goal of their leaders.

That said, I also think characterising the conflict as an " Israeli land grab" is a little hit-and-miss, though I believe it is partially true. The Israeli government would disagree, because they frame the ongoing bombardment as purely an act of defence. I don't want to be misinterpreted, because Israel absolutely have the right to defend themselves from terrorism as any other country, but I don't believe their continued actions are either effective or particularly believable as defence. It's ineffective as defence in that is impossible to kill an ideology and instead I fear the Israeli government and military actions are instead laying the groundwork for an increased terrorist threat in the future driven by fear and vengeance. I also worry that the Israeli government is driving away many of their international allies, support I sincerely hope can be swiftly returned if there is significant governmental change ousting Netanyahu and far-right ministers. It isn't believable as defence because of the numerous contradictory comments from Israeli government officials, some of which were laid out in the ICC court case, and the increased drive of illegal settlers in the West Bank. Settlers have spoken, even to BBC interviewers, about their plans to build in Gaza after the war. It may not have begun as a land-grab, but it is clear that the government, military and settlers have jumped at the chance once given an excuse.

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:26

@Fordian I have been genuinely surprised at the extent no one is really bothered about them?

There was another genocide in history where this same sentiment was echoed.

Dulra · 28/10/2024 23:26

Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:24

To be fair, UNRWA need banning. They are a toxic, malign force at work indoctrinating kids, controlling the populace into compliance.

Palestinians deserve better.

Palestinians deserve better

Like you care

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:28

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I may be wrong, but I believe Israel has given back quite a lot of land it 'grabbed' in wars it didn't start.

That's not very expansionist is it?

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username1478 · 28/10/2024 23:28

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:28

I may be wrong, but I believe Israel has given back quite a lot of land it 'grabbed' in wars it didn't start.

That's not very expansionist is it?

You're wrong.

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:29

Dulra · 28/10/2024 23:26

Palestinians deserve better

Like you care

I actually do. I wish there was something that could be done to release the people in Gaza from the grip of the fanatics holding them hostage: Hamas.

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Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:29

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:28

I may be wrong, but I believe Israel has given back quite a lot of land it 'grabbed' in wars it didn't start.

That's not very expansionist is it?

There is no maybe, you are wrong.

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:31

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:29

I actually do. I wish there was something that could be done to release the people in Gaza from the grip of the fanatics holding them hostage: Hamas.

Can you not see? Who is dropping 2000 pound bombs on them?

username1478 · 28/10/2024 23:32

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:31

Can you not see? Who is dropping 2000 pound bombs on them?

They're perfectly aware of what Israel is doing. They're just winding people up.

GhostCicada · 28/10/2024 23:34

Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:24

To be fair, UNRWA need banning. They are a toxic, malign force at work indoctrinating kids, controlling the populace into compliance.

Palestinians deserve better.

Yeah that's what Israel says.

Keir Starmer, the prime minister, said the UK was “gravely concerned” that the bill had passed, adding: “This legislation risks making Unrwa’s essential work for Palestinians impossible, jeopardising the entire international humanitarian response in Gaza and delivery of essential health and education services in the West Bank.

Matthew Miller US state department spokeman said that Unrwa had an “irreplaceable” role in providing aid to the Gaza Strip.

On Sunday, the foreign ministers of Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea and the UK all voiced their opposition to the legislation and said it could lead to “devastating consequences”.

Looks like Israel and their fans are the only ones who agree with you.

Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:37

@Lalaloveya

Interesting that you consider my points 'goady'.

They are a statement of truth. As evidenced by the complete reluctance of all of the neighbours to step up, or in.

I don't know who was advising Hamas on Oct 7. My belief is that it was to be brief border incursion, BUT they encountered no resistance due to the political upheavals in Israeli politics at that time.

They ran amok. As we all saw on their go-pros they PUBLISHED ONLINE.

I even think Iran went 😬 too much, lads!

I think many of the surrounding countries were finding an acceptance of the existence of Israel. Who were making deals with Saudi and the UAE. After all, most human beings choose peace over war.

On that day, Iran unleashed their fighter dogs, Hamas, just a bit. But they ran wild.

Now the people of Gaza, who voted Hamas in, are paying the price of 'Never Again'.

And much of the world tacitly agree with them.

That's not 'goady', that's the reality.

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:37

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:26

@Fordian I have been genuinely surprised at the extent no one is really bothered about them?

There was another genocide in history where this same sentiment was echoed.

@Kakeandkake are you referencing the horrors of the holocaust

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maudelovesharold · 28/10/2024 23:38

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:29

I actually do. I wish there was something that could be done to release the people in Gaza from the grip of the fanatics holding them hostage: Hamas.

The only fanatics holding Gazans in their grip now are the Israeli government and the IDF.

Lalaloveya · 28/10/2024 23:40

Fordian · 28/10/2024 23:37

@Lalaloveya

Interesting that you consider my points 'goady'.

They are a statement of truth. As evidenced by the complete reluctance of all of the neighbours to step up, or in.

I don't know who was advising Hamas on Oct 7. My belief is that it was to be brief border incursion, BUT they encountered no resistance due to the political upheavals in Israeli politics at that time.

They ran amok. As we all saw on their go-pros they PUBLISHED ONLINE.

I even think Iran went 😬 too much, lads!

I think many of the surrounding countries were finding an acceptance of the existence of Israel. Who were making deals with Saudi and the UAE. After all, most human beings choose peace over war.

On that day, Iran unleashed their fighter dogs, Hamas, just a bit. But they ran wild.

Now the people of Gaza, who voted Hamas in, are paying the price of 'Never Again'.

And much of the world tacitly agree with them.

That's not 'goady', that's the reality.

It's blaming Palestinian civilians for what Hamas did, and suggesting that Palestinians are worthless.

Saying it's goady is an understatement.

Featherkin · 28/10/2024 23:40

I could be wrong but I heard there is some kind of prophecy where when Jews are in Isreal occupying all the relavent bits then the messiah will come to earth. This is one of the reasons the religious right in the US are so supportive of Isreal because they think it will bring about the end times rapture etc.

If this is the case the. Perhaps it’s a bit of both, there some very religious Jews who see the land grab as their religious duty as well. I’m not trying to justify it just noting that there is some religious lunacy along with the more traditional land grabbers.

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:41

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:37

@Kakeandkake are you referencing the horrors of the holocaust

Yes, the same thing was said then which was unacceptable, yet it's openly said about the Palestinians now. It's rule number one in the genocide handbook to start off by dehumanising the group you inflict it on.

Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:54

Lalaloveya · 28/10/2024 23:40

It's blaming Palestinian civilians for what Hamas did, and suggesting that Palestinians are worthless.

Saying it's goady is an understatement.

Palestinian citizens followed Hamas operatives through the fence and were complicit. Palestinian citizens cheered and spat on hostages when they were brought back into Gaza.

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Oodiks · 28/10/2024 23:55

Kakeandkake · 28/10/2024 23:41

Yes, the same thing was said then which was unacceptable, yet it's openly said about the Palestinians now. It's rule number one in the genocide handbook to start off by dehumanising the group you inflict it on.

Do you really understand what the holocaust was. The records that were kept, the gold that was stolen, the experiments, the gas, the starvation, the true horrors?

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