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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas leader dead surely the wat between Israel and Gaza and Lebanon must stop now

172 replies

Hunnymonster1 · 17/10/2024 22:15

War not wat can’t edit title oops
Surely Israel have achieved their goal of bringing down the leader of hamas? When I heard that he was dead my first thoughts were that must mean a ceasefire can be done now surely. Or do you think the prime minister of Israel knows his number is up politically soon that’s why he won’t stop the war? Plus we all know a cease fire has to take both sides and just because this leader is dead doesn’t mean another won’t step up
so maybe I am being niave in my point of view

OP posts:
Catatonican · 18/10/2024 06:01

The world has seen the Israeli government for what it truly is. There would have been many that had no idea about the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank pre Oct 7th, but now they are aware.

SharonEllis · 18/10/2024 07:19

SummerFeverVenice · 18/10/2024 00:08

The definition only requires intention to destroy in whole or in part.
The part must be “substantial”
The Sebrenica genocide (ruled as one by the ICJ) had a death toll of 8,000 boys/men and displacement of 20,000 civilians in a much larger population and region.

No one knows how many Hamas fighters have been killed, so there is no way to say how many of the 42k estimated dead were Hamas. All we know is that it is some number less than 10k as three quarters of the dead are women killed with their children. From the 10k we would have to subtract all civilian men, including the hundreds of medical workers, rescue/fire fighters, UN staff and journalists that have been tracked as killed.

  1. I'm not talking about the definition, I'm referring to the PP who says that Netanyahu has 'largely succeeded' in destroying the Palestinians. For that to be true he would need to have destroyed a large majority. This is nowhere near the case 2. We dont know, and unlike you I don't trust Hamas figures but of course a large proportion are going to be Hamas fighters. The Israelis war aim is to destroy Hamas. Unless Hamas really are spectacularly successful in their human shield strategy and have managed to protect most of Gaza's men, while pushing its women & children onto the front line.
Martymcfly24 · 18/10/2024 07:31

SharonEllis · 18/10/2024 07:19

  1. I'm not talking about the definition, I'm referring to the PP who says that Netanyahu has 'largely succeeded' in destroying the Palestinians. For that to be true he would need to have destroyed a large majority. This is nowhere near the case 2. We dont know, and unlike you I don't trust Hamas figures but of course a large proportion are going to be Hamas fighters. The Israelis war aim is to destroy Hamas. Unless Hamas really are spectacularly successful in their human shield strategy and have managed to protect most of Gaza's men, while pushing its women & children onto the front line.

They don't have to be dead right now to have been "largely successful' in destroying the Palestinians.
Malnutrition,disease, homelessness, etc all ensure the life span of Palestinians will be drastically reduced over the coming years even if they manage to escape the airstrikes.

Plus their lives are already destroyed, they are traumatized beyond belief.

I think is aim is being achieved in the short and long term.

SharonEllis · 18/10/2024 07:35

Martymcfly24 · 18/10/2024 07:31

They don't have to be dead right now to have been "largely successful' in destroying the Palestinians.
Malnutrition,disease, homelessness, etc all ensure the life span of Palestinians will be drastically reduced over the coming years even if they manage to escape the airstrikes.

Plus their lives are already destroyed, they are traumatized beyond belief.

I think is aim is being achieved in the short and long term.

I don't deny the intense trauma of conflict but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the meaning of 'destroy', In this context.

000EverybodyLovesTheSunshine000 · 18/10/2024 07:56

Surely this just makes things worse.

Dulra · 18/10/2024 08:22

Martymcfly24 · 18/10/2024 07:31

They don't have to be dead right now to have been "largely successful' in destroying the Palestinians.
Malnutrition,disease, homelessness, etc all ensure the life span of Palestinians will be drastically reduced over the coming years even if they manage to escape the airstrikes.

Plus their lives are already destroyed, they are traumatized beyond belief.

I think is aim is being achieved in the short and long term.

It is also not just about the numbers that have been killed it is the impact of the destruction on the society. Universities, homes, recreation, hospitals, schools, cultural sites all destroyed. The social fabric that shapes a society. People completely displaced, children malnourished which will lead to huge health and developmental problems going forward, a population traumatised. All of this combined contributes to the destruction of a national group.

ChocolateLemsip · 18/10/2024 08:25

If Netanyahu really cared about getting the hostages home he would not have begun bombing Gaza in the first place. His concern for them is secondary at best. Many of the hostage families are extremely critical of him. He has not acted in their interests at all.

Fordian · 18/10/2024 08:53

Catatonican · 18/10/2024 06:01

The world has seen the Israeli government for what it truly is. There would have been many that had no idea about the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank pre Oct 7th, but now they are aware.

Are we using the 'paradise' model or the 'open air prison' one?

Given the amount of aid Gaza has been given over the years, you'd think they'd all be living like Kuwaitis.

Whatsinanamehey · 18/10/2024 08:56

Catatonican · 18/10/2024 06:01

The world has seen the Israeli government for what it truly is. There would have been many that had no idea about the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank pre Oct 7th, but now they are aware.

The Israeli government have terrible PR. It would have gone bad for them regardless.

Fordian · 18/10/2024 08:56

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Dulra · 18/10/2024 08:59

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once they choose to stop being victims and proxies for others' wars?

What a disgusting minimising statement. No words

Whatsinanamehey · 18/10/2024 09:01

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What a terrible thing to say! Many of the casualties are young children, think about that before you make such comments.

Dulra · 18/10/2024 09:04

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The Germans and Japanese didn't turn into vengeful blood-thirsty monsters after their defeats,
No they didn't, did all Palestinians?

Won't they want better?
Of course they want better and they deserve better. Will Israel stop controlling everything and give them a right to self determination and to form their own path without constant threats to their existence?

Moglet4 · 18/10/2024 09:05

User37482 · 17/10/2024 23:14

I think Netanyahu is saying hand over the hostages and we can all stop. I think we are at the point now where if the hostages are returned then Israel will wind down in Gaza. But the hostages must be returned and hamas need to lay down arms otherwise this will not stop

Lebanon is different, they also attacked Israel first but I don’t think Israel is going to leave Hezbollah in a position to attack it in the near future if it can help it. I imagine they are also hoping to defang hezbollah enough so that another civil group can move into the vacuum and the Lebanese army can take over security of Lebanon.

Houthis also struck Israel without provocation and the USA actually bombed them recently not Israel, partly because they are setting fire to cargo ships in the straits.

Hamas have been stealing aid and selling it back to Palestinians according to a Palestinian account I follow on twitter. Aid is getting to people with money not the most needy. Really need freeflow aid and security to be restored in Gaza, the PA need to go in and manage healthcare and food. I really hope that is soon.

Except his own words say he isn’t: ‘The return of the hostages… brings the end of the war nearer’.

Catatonican · 18/10/2024 09:10

Fordian · 18/10/2024 08:53

Are we using the 'paradise' model or the 'open air prison' one?

Given the amount of aid Gaza has been given over the years, you'd think they'd all be living like Kuwaitis.

Nowhere near the billions and billions given to Israel.

ismu · 18/10/2024 10:19

The aid that has been sent to Gaza has been delayed by the Israeli government who control most of the borders. In fact no aid, including medical supplies has been allowed in to the north of Gaza for the past month, although it's changed just recently.
How genocidal does a genocide have to be before we can call it out? Quoting David and vowing to crush people to ashes sounds pretty clear.
Netanyahu absolutely does not care about the hostages. He could have had them freed a year ago but that doesn't suit his worldview as quoted in the speech.
No one seems to be able to challenge him, from inside and outside Israel. Why?

Silence1 · 18/10/2024 11:00

Dulra · 18/10/2024 08:22

It is also not just about the numbers that have been killed it is the impact of the destruction on the society. Universities, homes, recreation, hospitals, schools, cultural sites all destroyed. The social fabric that shapes a society. People completely displaced, children malnourished which will lead to huge health and developmental problems going forward, a population traumatised. All of this combined contributes to the destruction of a national group.

The Dahiya Doctrine named after a Beirut suburb by an Israeli General.

"Since its inception, the Dahiya Doctrine has guided IDF military operations in Gaza in 2008, 2012, and 2014. In each of these wars, human rights groups and international organizations widely criticized Israel for its disproportionate use of force and for the scale of the devastation inflicted. For critics of the Dahiya Doc trine, this intention to inflict immense destruction, explicitly not distinguishing between civilian and military targets and the purposefully high damage inflicted on civilian property and infrastructure, constitute a breach of international conventions and laws of war, especially of the principle of proportionality. "(written 2020)

HoppingPavlova · 18/10/2024 11:22

Hamas leader dead surely the wat between Israel and Gaza and Lebanon must stop now

Nope. It won’t stop and here is why - have included link for source at end.

——————
In Deir al-Balah, where many displaced Palestinians have fled over the past year, others called Sinwar’s death “a tragedy” and noted that he had died in an honourable way.
“It will not affect the interest of the country,” said Ahmad Hamdouna, who was also displaced from Gaza City.
“After the leader a thousand of leaders will come, and after the man a thousand of men will come.”

www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/hamas-leader-dead-israel-says-yahya-sinwar-mastermind-of-october-7-attacks-died-in-idf-attack-20241018-p5kjbm.html?post=p57qgh&gb=1

Dulra · 18/10/2024 13:20

HoppingPavlova · 18/10/2024 11:22

Hamas leader dead surely the wat between Israel and Gaza and Lebanon must stop now

Nope. It won’t stop and here is why - have included link for source at end.

——————
In Deir al-Balah, where many displaced Palestinians have fled over the past year, others called Sinwar’s death “a tragedy” and noted that he had died in an honourable way.
“It will not affect the interest of the country,” said Ahmad Hamdouna, who was also displaced from Gaza City.
“After the leader a thousand of leaders will come, and after the man a thousand of men will come.”

www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/hamas-leader-dead-israel-says-yahya-sinwar-mastermind-of-october-7-attacks-died-in-idf-attack-20241018-p5kjbm.html?post=p57qgh&gb=1

I can't read your link because it is behind a paywall.

What comes before this quote?
In Deir al-Balah, where many displaced Palestinians have fled over the past year, others called Sinwar’s death “a tragedy”

The inclusion of the word "others" suggest there was a different view by others quoted before this was there?

SoreHeadInBed · 18/10/2024 13:37

Hunnymonster1 · 17/10/2024 22:15

War not wat can’t edit title oops
Surely Israel have achieved their goal of bringing down the leader of hamas? When I heard that he was dead my first thoughts were that must mean a ceasefire can be done now surely. Or do you think the prime minister of Israel knows his number is up politically soon that’s why he won’t stop the war? Plus we all know a cease fire has to take both sides and just because this leader is dead doesn’t mean another won’t step up
so maybe I am being niave in my point of view

Israel has one of the best intelligence services and military in the world. So ... if they wanted to eliminate Sinwar, if that was the 'aim' - they could have done so long ago (and incidentally, they could have done it long before Oct 7th) and before they pummeled the shit out of Gaza and destroyed the lives of over a million innocent Palestinians.

The Israeli intelligence services and IDF could, with not too much difficulty, have strategically eliminated most senior Hamas officials without all this destruction. Gaza is pretty small, there has been no means of escape since Oct 7th (and before, except via a couple known about exit and entry points) - so finding senior officials wouldn't have been hard.

Israel's aim here is total and utter destruction of Gaza and the death or traumatising of its population. That's it. They want the land. It's clear and simple. Netenyahu has zero empathy or humanity or consideration of the hostages or of the innocent people he is slaughtering.

Hamas are simply the excuse, the convenient justification for Netenyahu to meet his objectives.

I think the only person in history I have hated more than Netenyahu is Hitler. But Netenyahu comes pretty close.

Toomanywars · 18/10/2024 14:33

SummerFeverVenice · 17/10/2024 23:00

Here is full text of his speech from Times of Israel:

”Citizens of Israel, a year ago we celebrated the festival of Sukkot. At exactly that moment, Yahya Sinwar was making the final preparations for the slaughter of October 7.

I stand before you today to tell you that Yahya Sinwar has been eliminated. The one who carried out the worst massacre in the history of our people since the Holocaust, the mass murderer who murdered thousands of Israelis, abducted hundreds of our people, was eliminated today by our heroic soldiers.”

Today, as we promised we would, we settled accounts with him.

Today, evil suffered a heavy blow, but our mission is not yet completed.

To the dear hostage families, I say: This is an important moment in the war. We will continue with full force until all your loved ones — our loved ones — are returned home. That is our supreme obligation. That is my supreme obligation

To the residents of Gaza, I say: Sinwar destroyed your lives. He told you he was a lion but in practice, he hid in a dark tunnel and was eliminated when he fled in a panic from our soldiers.

His elimination is an important milestone in the demise of the Hamas axis of evil.

I want to say again as clearly as possible: Hamas will not rule again in Gaza.

This is the beginning of the day after Hamas, and this is an opportunity for you, residents of Gaza, to finally be free of its tyranny.

To the terrorists of Hamas, I say: Your leaders are fleeing and will be eliminated.
I say to all those who are holding our hostages: Those who put down their weapons and leave our hostages, we will allow them to come out and live. And by the same token, I say, those who harm our hostages, his blood is on his head and we will settle accounts with him.

The return of the hostages is an opportunity to achieve all of our goals, and it brings the end of the war nearer.

To the people of the region, I say: In Gaza, in Beirut, in the streets of the entire area, the darkness is withdrawing and the light is rising.

Deif, Haniyeh, Sinwar, Nasrallah, Mohsen, Aqil and many of their partners are no more.

I call on you, peoples of the region: We have a great opportunity to thwart the axis of evil and to create a different future, a future of peace, a future in which the entire region thrives. Together we can push away the curse and advance the blessing.

It’s now clear to all, in Israel and the world, why we insisted not to stop the war — why we insisted, in the face of all the pressures, yes to go into Rafah, the fortified stronghold of Hamas, where Sinwar and many of the mass-murderers were hiding.

I want to express deep appreciation to the fighters of the IDF and the Shin Bet, and their commanders, for their determined and brave operations. There are none better than them.

Today we again showed what happens to those who hurt us. Today, we again showed the world the victory of the good over the evil.

But the war, the war, my dear ones, is not yet finished. It is harsh and it takes a heavy price from us. I want to send from the bottom of my heart my condolences to those who have lost their loved ones. I want to embrace the families of our fallen heroes. Their ultimate sacrifice, including in these very days, brings us closer to victory.

As King David said, “I will pursue my enemies and destroy them. And I will not turn back until they are wiped out.”

Citizens of Israel, we are in the war of revival. We still face immense challenges. We need stamina, unity in the ranks, courage, determined resilience. Together we will fight and with God’s help, together we will win.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-netanyahus-address-after-killing-of-hamas-terror-chief-yahya-sinwar/

Thank you for sharing.

Let's hope so e potential leaders that would prefer peaceful solutions might emerge.

SharonEllis · 18/10/2024 14:58

@soreheadinbed So, we have a significant number of the world's military commanders, strategists, analysts discussing over the last year what a complex operation this war is and on the other hand someone on mumsnet who somehow knows that all of Hamas's leadership etc could have been easily eliminated long ago. I guess its up to us all to decide who we believe.

As for Netanyu (who I despise) any sort of comparison with Hitler, is pretty gross. Nor is he on any sort of par with other mass murderers. Its obviously up to you who you hate but I would put these guys above Netanyahu;
Mao who was responsible for the deaths & torture of over45 million people between 1958-62. Under his regime, people were murdered but also the population was terrorised e.g. the father of a boy who stole a handful of grain was forced to bury him alive.
Leopold II, possibly 15 million died, millions more tortured and treated with appalling barbarity, e.g. limbs amputated for minor transgressions, alongside spectacular evironmental destruction.
Stalin we dont know, at least 6 milliin, possibly 20 million. Through purges, executions, famine.
Saddam Hussein, over 250K Iraqis dead, purges, public executions, persecution of minorities etc.
And many other dictators and mass murderers.

Oodiks · 18/10/2024 16:33

000EverybodyLovesTheSunshine000 · 18/10/2024 07:56

Surely this just makes things worse.

How so?

SoreHeadInBed · 18/10/2024 16:37

SharonEllis · 18/10/2024 14:58

@soreheadinbed So, we have a significant number of the world's military commanders, strategists, analysts discussing over the last year what a complex operation this war is and on the other hand someone on mumsnet who somehow knows that all of Hamas's leadership etc could have been easily eliminated long ago. I guess its up to us all to decide who we believe.

As for Netanyu (who I despise) any sort of comparison with Hitler, is pretty gross. Nor is he on any sort of par with other mass murderers. Its obviously up to you who you hate but I would put these guys above Netanyahu;
Mao who was responsible for the deaths & torture of over45 million people between 1958-62. Under his regime, people were murdered but also the population was terrorised e.g. the father of a boy who stole a handful of grain was forced to bury him alive.
Leopold II, possibly 15 million died, millions more tortured and treated with appalling barbarity, e.g. limbs amputated for minor transgressions, alongside spectacular evironmental destruction.
Stalin we dont know, at least 6 milliin, possibly 20 million. Through purges, executions, famine.
Saddam Hussein, over 250K Iraqis dead, purges, public executions, persecution of minorities etc.
And many other dictators and mass murderers.

Edited

As you say, it is up to me who I hate (and I can count the number of people on one hand. So it's not many).

I don't think it is gross to say that I hate Hitler and I hate Netenyahu almost as much. In my opinion, both want(ed) to eliminate a group of people (Hitler wanted to eliminate Jews, gypsies, disabled ... Netenyahu wants to eliminate Palestinians). Both have dehumanised a whole group of people. Both use propaganda as a weapon. Both have mass murdered children, women and men and somehow convinced a load of people that its ok to kill and dehumanise a group of people.

Not sure how Netenyahu is not on a par with other mass murderers? So far he's got away with far more than mass murder. I've worked in prisons all my life. I've worked with men who are serving life sentences for the murder of one or two people (as of course they should). Netanyhu has ordered and okay'd the murders of thousands yet so far he walks free. This I wrong. V. Wrong

(And before anyone says 'what about those who killed people on 7/10, shouldn't they face justice ... Yes, yes, of course they should face justice too. But innocent children, men and women should not be paying the price for their actions)

SoreHeadInBed · 18/10/2024 16:43

SharonEllis · 18/10/2024 14:58

@soreheadinbed So, we have a significant number of the world's military commanders, strategists, analysts discussing over the last year what a complex operation this war is and on the other hand someone on mumsnet who somehow knows that all of Hamas's leadership etc could have been easily eliminated long ago. I guess its up to us all to decide who we believe.

As for Netanyu (who I despise) any sort of comparison with Hitler, is pretty gross. Nor is he on any sort of par with other mass murderers. Its obviously up to you who you hate but I would put these guys above Netanyahu;
Mao who was responsible for the deaths & torture of over45 million people between 1958-62. Under his regime, people were murdered but also the population was terrorised e.g. the father of a boy who stole a handful of grain was forced to bury him alive.
Leopold II, possibly 15 million died, millions more tortured and treated with appalling barbarity, e.g. limbs amputated for minor transgressions, alongside spectacular evironmental destruction.
Stalin we dont know, at least 6 milliin, possibly 20 million. Through purges, executions, famine.
Saddam Hussein, over 250K Iraqis dead, purges, public executions, persecution of minorities etc.
And many other dictators and mass murderers.

Edited

... and also - it's not a 'war'.

If Israel was at 'war' then there wouldn't be teenagers sunbathing on the beaches of tel aviv, mums taking kids to the cinema, twenty-somethings chilling out at cafes, civilians going about their business, going to work, going to school, enjoying themselves.

If it was a war, Israel would be under siege.

It is not a war. It is the Israeli government and the IDF obliterating Gaza. They are bringing terror and hell to Gaza. They have destroyed everything - schools, hospitals, jobs, homes, families, limbs, roads, EVERYTHING that made Gaza fit for human habitation has been destroyed, while Israelis enjoy the high-life!

That is NOT war. That is genocide and ethnic cleansing by an occupying country towards the occupied people who it has imprisoned.