UN peacekeepers injured by Israel

[EasterIssland]

After all the news this week regarding IDF threatening peacekeepers in Lebanon this is news now.

from bbc

Two UN peacekeepers injured after Israeli tank fires at watchtowerpublished at 12:50 British Summer Time
12:50 BSTBREAKING
Two UN peacekeepers have been injured after an Israeli tank fired towards a watchtower at a UN base in southern Lebanon, the UN says.
According to a statement by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), the observation tower at its headquarters in Naqoura was directly hit, causing the peacekeepers to fall.
"The injuries are fortunately, this time, not serious, but they remain in hospital," the UN says.
It adds that Israeli soldiers also fired at a UN base in Ras Naqoura, "hitting the entrance to the bunker where peacekeepers were sheltering, and damaging vehicles and a communications system".
There's more in their statement which we'll bring you shortly.
UNIFIL is a UN peacekeeping mission created in 1978. It monitors hostilities and helps to ensure humanitarian access to civilians.

@Scirocco agreed. No one believes Hamas with their record of lying so why believe the IDF and Israeli government!?

I really don't understand either. At this stage, critical thinking has gone out of the window.

@Auvergne63

"I really don't understand either. At this stage, critical thinking has gone out of the window"

I agree with you that critical thinking has gone out of the window but only because the debate has become so polarised and opinions so deeply entrenched that no one is willing to consider the issue from the other sides viewpoint. This in turn makes any understanding of each side's fears and wants impossible along with any compromise solution.

Exactly, they have been caught out lying many many many times.

You are talking about an army that bombs starving people in food centres. They don't hold the moral high ground in any way and I would certainly be very sceptical about what they say.

@Scirocco

"At this point, why do people believe the account of a force with an established track record of dishonesty? I can understand people saying they'd want an independent assessment of what happened, but how much credibility can really be given to an organisation that has lied so consistently?"

Are you suggesting that the UN is a force with an established track record of dishonesty or the IDF or both?

I presume both given that the UN account and the IDF account on the use of the smoke screen matches.

I would actually like to understand why people believe the IDF's accounts of things.

Well, the IDF have an established track record of lying and having people believe whatever they say. So, I'm not inclined to automatically believe any excuses they give. But some people are, which seems strange, especially as those same people often automatically dismiss things from multiple sources, with independent reports, with eyewitness accounts corroborating each other, etc. if those things don't paint the IDF or Israeli people in a positive light.

Aren’t you concerned that people that were wearing masks suffered from side effects from this smoke? I’d be concerned what type of smoke was used.

@Scirocco

"I would actually like to understand why people believe the IDF's accounts of things"

Fair question. Firstly I think on all news there is the need to be the first to get it out regardless of whether it's true or not.

I see false information falling into three categories:
Selective interpretation- so on the UN post - the UN claim the IDF smashed down the gates with a tank, whereas the IDF claim they accidentally reversed into it whilst picking up wounded soldiers. It's a bit like me knocking over your favourite garden gnome whilst reversing off your driveway - understandably upset you may claim that I deliberately reversed into it whereas I may claim it was an accident. It's simply a matter of interpretation but in any event the gate or gnome has been broken.

Being first - the example I think best shows this is the case sometime ago of the Hamas rocket launch that misfired and landed on a hospital car park killing several people. It was immediately claimed that this was an Israeli missile attack on a hospital. It took some time to show that it was actually a Hamas rocket but by which time the false version had already been established.

Deliberate false information - much like the false information tweets that started / inflamed the recent UK riots. Or for example there was even one poster on this thread promoting false information that this was a chemical weapons attack by the Israelis against the UN when both the UN and IDF agreed it was a smoke screen.

In the case of the UN post and the smoke inhalation I have no doubt that the IDF will put a positive spin on it and the UN a negative spin with the truth lying somewhere in between.

A question in return, I would like to understand why people believe the Hamas Health Ministry produced figures of 42,000 deaths in Gaza and why people claim they were all innocent civilians when the Health Ministry themselves admit this figure includes Hamas members.

@EasterIssland

"Aren’t you concerned that people that were wearing masks suffered from side effects from this smoke? I’d be concerned what type of smoke was used."

No I would say that is fairly normal to suffer smoke side effects even with a gas mask. The seal will not be perfect, they may not have been put on quick enough and liquid used on the masks to improve the seal will irritate the skin.

But that said aren't you concerned that there are posters on this thread falsely claiming this was a chemical weapons attack when both the UN and IDF agree that it was a smokescreen.

I think you are confusing things here. There is the rush to report which can result in inaccuracies as you have described but then there is intentionally putting out false information. When there are conflicting reports of an incident you go with what you trust. Many people do not trust the IDF account of things because they have been proven to lie. I trust the UN peacekeepers reports because I am not aware of any reputation for lying.

why people believe the Hamas Health Ministry produced figures of 42,000 deaths in Gaza
There are no other sources because, as has been pointed out time and again on these threads Israel will not allow any independent observers in and many actually feel these figures are an underestimate not over estimate. It is extremely difficult to identify bodies that are blown to bits and also to determine how many are trapped under rubble. In the case of children it can be hard to identify them if there is no surviving family member to do so.

why people claim they were all innocent civilians when the Health Ministry themselves admit this figure includes Hamas members.
Don't think people claim that, most focus on the 15,000 children dead because they know for certain they are not Hamas. As the figure of those killed is likely to be an underestimate I would be confident that at least 40,000 innocent civilians have been killed.

@Dulra

"I trust the UN peacekeepers reports because I am not aware of any reputation for lying."

I am less trusting of the UN given they clearly want to put themselves in the most favourable light possible and avoid accusations that they have been ineffective in their role in enforcing the UN resolution 1701.

To me this was demonstrated by the failure of the UN to disclose to the Irish authorities the exact circumstances of the death of Private Sean Rooney.

www.thejournal.ie/sean-rooney-inquest-6444040-Jul2024/

I am talking about the reports from the peacekeepers at the base not the UN but I would still trust them more than IDF

@1dayatatimeI still struggle to see why, if people are aware of the potential perils of incorrect information, so many people seem to automatically believe the IDF and Israeli government, when there have been multiple instances of not just incorrect information but actual deliberate lies being presented by them as truth.

In relation to information coming from the health ministry in Gaza and why that may be more credible despite the potential political influence, there is a track record of the health ministry and related bodies providing information which has been consistent with the information from other sources, including on breakdowns of casualty demographics. If anything, the information now coming from other sources suggests those health ministry figures may be underestimates. Nobody has claimed that no combatants have been killed and/or injured. What does appear striking from the available data (not simply from the health ministry but from other sources, including Israeli sources) is the high numbers of civilian casualties. It's not a case of blindly accepting a number or a statistic from the health ministry, but instead of considering the multiple information sources indicating casualty rates and assessing the potential reliability or lack of reliability of that number or statistic in that context.

@Dulra

"I am talking about the reports from the peacekeepers at the base not the UN but I would still trust them more than IDF"

But there isn't that much difference between the two accounts. Both agree a smokescreen was used, both agree the gate to the post was broken (UN say deliberately, IDF say accidentally).

So why did you bring it up in the first place? I was merely pointing out whose account I would trust

@Dulra

Because of posters claiming the IDF account of what happened as lies when it was largely the same as the UN account - unless those posters are claiming both the IDF and the UN are lying.

In addition there was a poster falsely claiming that this was a chemical weapons attack!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9j74z7xvmo.amp

Israel are trying to get the UN out of Gaza and Lebanon. I wonder why 🤔

@1dayatatime
I believe the figures.
I have spoken to a medic who has seen the scale of civilian casualties firsthand.
I have seen the size of the little bodies- they would be very small to be terrorists.There are a lot of verified images, a lot of eye witness accounts. There are lists of people, their names. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/17/gaza-publishes-identities-of-34344-palestinians-killed-in-war-with-israel
These people had extended family, social media accounts. Some of them have family here in Ireland .

There is no history of the health ministry inflating the numbers of dead people.
When they have categorised them into males , females etc the numbers add up- there was no significant discrepancy , just Israeli propaganda surrounding uncategorised deaths.
I have looked at a lot of the before and after images in the New York Times which specialised in this type of journalism. There’s no concern that the death figures are being inflated.
I have read the reports in reputable medical journals where excess deaths were modelled and I think the modelling was fairly good- it’s got a lot better since covid generally.
Israel is not at all transparent about how many IDF were killed or taken hostage on 7/10 and Israeli propaganda is considerably greater.

I think that it’s disrespectful of the dead to deny the numbers at this point- even Israeli propagandists have given up fighting the overwhelming evidence
How many people do you think have died? Like where would you put the decimal point? Do you really think people living in tents packed so closely can not die in great numbers when a 2000 pound bomb is dropped on them?

Many expert organisations have already said that the numbers are too low and that more people that those that have been announced by the health ministry

Yes,

Scientists are closing in on the true, horrifying scale of death and disease in Gaza
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/05/scientists-death-disease-gaza-polio-vaccinations-israel
Excerpt:
They estimate that about 186,000 total deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza, which is roughly 7.9% of its population, by mid-June 2024. This high number is despite various ceasefire agreements over the past six months. If deaths continue at this rate – about 23,000 a month – there would be an additional 149,500 deaths by the end of the year, some six and half months from the initial mid-June estimate. Using the method, the total deaths since the conflict began would be estimated at about 335,500 in total.
335,500 Palestinian deaths in total by the end of the year.

https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-10-15/unifil-spokesman-in-lebanon-israel-cannot-dictate-the-fate-of-a-mission-that-has-the-will-of-the-international-community.html?outputType=amp

from the link
while suggesting that Israeli troops and not Hezbollah — as Netanyahu claims — have used UNIFIL positions as human shields.

Fwiw the health ministry figures are cited in the Israeli media also. I don’t see anyone serious disputing them now. The main dispute is about the proportion of combatants vs non-combatants, because Hamas does not release figures of combatants killed. The proportion of non-combatants killed is significant to the claims of genocide against Israel. Until a few months back the health ministry figures significantly undercounted the proportion of men of fighting age in the overall figure. The revised figures I believe are generally held to be accurate, but there is still dispute over the number of combatants among the men and 17-18 year old boys.

I did see someone on this or another thread claim that Israel did not publish figures distinguishing between soldiers and civilians who were killed and among the hostages. This is not the case. As soon as deaths are announced they are clearly announced as soldiers, and a separate tally of military deaths is kept and frequently published. With the exception of one hostage whose identity was not revealed for some time, lists of the hostages published in Israel have always listed personal details including whether they were serving as a soldier.