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Conflict in the Middle East
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140
Dulra · 20/10/2024 22:11

Heartbreaking scenes on the BBC from Northern Gaza tonight 😓
They also showed footage of Israelis looking through those coin operated binoculars to view the carnage in Gaza. I just don't understand why anyone would get enjoyment from that, it's disgusting.

Dulra · 20/10/2024 22:17

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 22:08

In the interest of fairness this is, as yet, a completely unsubstantiated report.

www.thewrap.com/bisan-owda-emmy-israel-gaza-idf-executions-claim/

I hope it isn't true.

I have not heard this anywhere else so it doesn't look like that is what the queue was for. Things are horrific enough without making up such horrors, doesn't help the situation at all. Everyone needs to hold onto the truth because doubt is not Palestinians friend.

GhostCicada · 20/10/2024 23:15

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 22:08

In the interest of fairness this is, as yet, a completely unsubstantiated report.

www.thewrap.com/bisan-owda-emmy-israel-gaza-idf-executions-claim/

I hope it isn't true.

I think Bisan deserves some compassion, which that article really hasn't shown. She is a young woman who has been through a lot(massive understatement), her posts on Instagram have swung from desperate to angry to resigned to her own death multiple times over. She's been displaced over and over again, lost friends and loved ones, lost her normal life and lost Gaza place that she clearly loved and had such pride in. It all comes back to the 'perfect victim' thing really, she probably isn't a perfect victim, perhaps she has in her desperation embellished things or spoken things she shouldn't have but she is a victim, multiple times over, her whole life scarred by Israels military occupation and blockade and now the horrors of the past year. I would angry too. I would be scared too. I would be desperate too. I probably wouldn't act in a way which would appear perfect to people not sat in a tent in an active war zone. I definitely wouldn't like Israel or have anything positive to say about them.

It troubles me that Palestinians have to be 'perfect victims' in order to have their victimhood recognised. We have to point to the little children and say look they are innocent, please if you care about no one else care about them. Even then that is met with thinly veiled Palestinian children are future terrorists posts.

People are complex and even more so when they go through a childhood of trauma and bombings and fear. It's remarkable that Bisan has become the talented, articulate, head strong young woman that she clearly is. I couldn't walk a mile in her shoes, so I refuse to pass judgement.

10UsernamesNotAvailableTryAnotherOne · 21/10/2024 07:06

GhostCicada · 20/10/2024 23:15

I think Bisan deserves some compassion, which that article really hasn't shown. She is a young woman who has been through a lot(massive understatement), her posts on Instagram have swung from desperate to angry to resigned to her own death multiple times over. She's been displaced over and over again, lost friends and loved ones, lost her normal life and lost Gaza place that she clearly loved and had such pride in. It all comes back to the 'perfect victim' thing really, she probably isn't a perfect victim, perhaps she has in her desperation embellished things or spoken things she shouldn't have but she is a victim, multiple times over, her whole life scarred by Israels military occupation and blockade and now the horrors of the past year. I would angry too. I would be scared too. I would be desperate too. I probably wouldn't act in a way which would appear perfect to people not sat in a tent in an active war zone. I definitely wouldn't like Israel or have anything positive to say about them.

It troubles me that Palestinians have to be 'perfect victims' in order to have their victimhood recognised. We have to point to the little children and say look they are innocent, please if you care about no one else care about them. Even then that is met with thinly veiled Palestinian children are future terrorists posts.

People are complex and even more so when they go through a childhood of trauma and bombings and fear. It's remarkable that Bisan has become the talented, articulate, head strong young woman that she clearly is. I couldn't walk a mile in her shoes, so I refuse to pass judgement.

Well said.

Daftasabroom · 21/10/2024 07:52

@GhostCicada thank you. I added the link because it included the original text and some background, your post adds width.

MissyB1 · 21/10/2024 08:56

Dulra · 20/10/2024 22:11

Heartbreaking scenes on the BBC from Northern Gaza tonight 😓
They also showed footage of Israelis looking through those coin operated binoculars to view the carnage in Gaza. I just don't understand why anyone would get enjoyment from that, it's disgusting.

The Israelis are probably eyeing up sites for their future homes 😡

Auvergne63 · 21/10/2024 12:17

Dulra · 20/10/2024 22:11

Heartbreaking scenes on the BBC from Northern Gaza tonight 😓
They also showed footage of Israelis looking through those coin operated binoculars to view the carnage in Gaza. I just don't understand why anyone would get enjoyment from that, it's disgusting.

They also showed footage of Israelis looking through those coin operated binoculars to view the carnage in Gaza
This the one of the most deprived thing I have ever read. What kind of human being would want to do this? Would ever think of doing this?

Toomanywars · 21/10/2024 13:00

I feel for her, but as a journalist she needs to ensure what she writes is factual. The queue of men lined up for death. Was it actually true.

"The language used by Owda has been criticized for it containing elements of blood libel, the false notion that Jews kill non-Jews to use their blood in rituals."

If she adds lies, exaggeration and anti semitism as in blood rituals she does herself no good. Or anyone for that matter.

Dulra · 21/10/2024 13:40

Auvergne63 · 21/10/2024 12:17

They also showed footage of Israelis looking through those coin operated binoculars to view the carnage in Gaza
This the one of the most deprived thing I have ever read. What kind of human being would want to do this? Would ever think of doing this?

I know, similar to the sightseeing boat trips that were reported on a couple of months back.

GhostCicada · 21/10/2024 17:26

Toomanywars · 21/10/2024 13:00

I feel for her, but as a journalist she needs to ensure what she writes is factual. The queue of men lined up for death. Was it actually true.

"The language used by Owda has been criticized for it containing elements of blood libel, the false notion that Jews kill non-Jews to use their blood in rituals."

If she adds lies, exaggeration and anti semitism as in blood rituals she does herself no good. Or anyone for that matter.

Edited

Do you think after 1 year of living on minimal food and water, living in absolute terror, being displaced multiple times, seeing horrific sights of people blown to pieces right in front of you and losing multiple loved ones it is possible to always make the right decisions, to sit and think is this post doing me good? She may be a journalist but she is also human, she has suffered side by side with everyone else in Gaza for the past year watching her fellow journalists be targets of Israel. She doesn't get to go home after a day of observing and chatting to people, make a cup of tea, call her editor to spit ball ideas then sit back on her sofa and carefully craft an Instagram post pondering on whether or not what she does is 'good' for her. She's stuck in Gaza, there is literally nothing she can do to make things 'good for herself'.

Scirocco · 21/10/2024 17:47

@GhostCicada I've heard accounts from people I know and trust, of people going through experiences very similar to what she has described (I can't speak for the accuracy or otherwise of the specific examples in the journalist's pieces, however). The separation of men and male children from women before taking them away for no clear reason other than being male in Palestine, mock executions, actual executions, torture, sexual assault, etc.... I don't think I know anyone personally who's reported having experienced live organ harvesting, but I do know people who have reported medical torture, and an investigation into the death of one of my friends years ago confirmed that some of her organs were removed after her death, and that this was not unusual practice. The language used by the journalist is emotive and in some cases should have been edited, and journalists should make sure their reporting is accurate and their examples sufficiently robust, but that doesn't mean these things aren't happening in Palestine.

Scirocco · 21/10/2024 18:01

Human shields, men separated and forced to risk their lives to keep their captors safer. And this is widespread.

Dulra · 21/10/2024 19:42

Did anyone see C4 news report from an illegal settler camp on the border with Gaza this evening? Settlers spouting disgusting hate filled rhetoric. Describing Palestinians as the infection in a cut that needs to be cleaned out. Suggesting Ireland and the UK would be happy to take them, mass deportations, the evil is so bad you have to do something with it.
Yes these can be dismissed as extremist views but they're there with the IDF supporting them and Isreali government ministers visiting and supporting them. It's so blatant what they're planning, literally waiting in the wings to enter Gaza when the time is right and the "evil is removed". None of this is going to help Israel in any way.

GhostCicada · 21/10/2024 19:53

Scirocco · 21/10/2024 17:47

@GhostCicada I've heard accounts from people I know and trust, of people going through experiences very similar to what she has described (I can't speak for the accuracy or otherwise of the specific examples in the journalist's pieces, however). The separation of men and male children from women before taking them away for no clear reason other than being male in Palestine, mock executions, actual executions, torture, sexual assault, etc.... I don't think I know anyone personally who's reported having experienced live organ harvesting, but I do know people who have reported medical torture, and an investigation into the death of one of my friends years ago confirmed that some of her organs were removed after her death, and that this was not unusual practice. The language used by the journalist is emotive and in some cases should have been edited, and journalists should make sure their reporting is accurate and their examples sufficiently robust, but that doesn't mean these things aren't happening in Palestine.

I think what gets to me is the compassion gap between the compassion people can show towards Israelis and the compassion they can show towards Palestinians. It's widely accepted that the 40 babies story for example came about due to traumatised people witnessing unimaginable horrors. Yet here we have a young woman who has endured sustained trauma, a year of the unimaginable and she is given no compassion and understanding.

Like you say there are reports of Israel separating out the men and doing terrible things. I'm sure Bisan herself has heard lots of stories. When she sees a line of men separated from their families being lined up by Israeli forces can we blame her for where her mind might go? I don't know if what she said is true or not but do we know that she didn't believe it to be true, that because of the trauma, because of the things she has witnessed, the people she knows who have disappeared, the stories she has heard that this to her seemed the only logical thing. I can certainly see how that would happen.

I just feel that there is a certain double standard at play, that there is never any room for Palestinians to be mistaken yet Israel can bomb an aid convoy, kill humanitarian workers, call it a mistake and all is forgiven.

I'm getting a migraine so apologies is that is a bit rambly, I'm putting away my phone now but I hope what I'm saying makes some kind of sense.

EasterIssland · 21/10/2024 21:58

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/21/middleeast/gaza-war-israeli-soldiers-ptsd-suicide-intl
He got out of Gaza, but Gaza did not get out of him’: Israeli soldiers returning from war struggle with trauma and suicide

SpiritAdder · 21/10/2024 22:47

Dulra · 21/10/2024 19:42

Did anyone see C4 news report from an illegal settler camp on the border with Gaza this evening? Settlers spouting disgusting hate filled rhetoric. Describing Palestinians as the infection in a cut that needs to be cleaned out. Suggesting Ireland and the UK would be happy to take them, mass deportations, the evil is so bad you have to do something with it.
Yes these can be dismissed as extremist views but they're there with the IDF supporting them and Isreali government ministers visiting and supporting them. It's so blatant what they're planning, literally waiting in the wings to enter Gaza when the time is right and the "evil is removed". None of this is going to help Israel in any way.

Yes, I posted the Haaretz report on the Preparing to Resettle Gaza Conference on another thread- the genocide of indigenous people? One.

It is really chilling. Several MKs and Cabinet Ministers were in attendance as speakers and panelists.

SpiritAdder · 21/10/2024 22:50

EasterIssland · 21/10/2024 21:58

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/21/middleeast/gaza-war-israeli-soldiers-ptsd-suicide-intl
He got out of Gaza, but Gaza did not get out of him’: Israeli soldiers returning from war struggle with trauma and suicide

There was also a sad report of a 22yo woman, Shiran Golan, who survived the Nova massacre that ended her life this weekend. Her family are blaming the healthcare for not even recognising she had PTSD and not giving her the mental health support she needed.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/nova-festival-survivor-takes-own-life-family-blames-state-for-ignoring-ptsd/

lionlass · 22/10/2024 07:46

EasterIssland · 21/10/2024 21:58

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/21/middleeast/gaza-war-israeli-soldiers-ptsd-suicide-intl
He got out of Gaza, but Gaza did not get out of him’: Israeli soldiers returning from war struggle with trauma and suicide

““Everything squirts out,” he added.
Zaken says he can no longer eat meat, as it reminds him of the gruesome scenes he witnessed from his bulldozer in Gaza, and struggles to sleep at night, the sound of explosions ringing in his head.”

I cannot believe we’re treating these monsters like they are the victims.

“Boo hoo it’s so hard for me to murder hundreds of human beings with my bulldozer and watch their guts squirt out.”

Toomanywars · 22/10/2024 07:54

lionlass · 22/10/2024 07:46

““Everything squirts out,” he added.
Zaken says he can no longer eat meat, as it reminds him of the gruesome scenes he witnessed from his bulldozer in Gaza, and struggles to sleep at night, the sound of explosions ringing in his head.”

I cannot believe we’re treating these monsters like they are the victims.

“Boo hoo it’s so hard for me to murder hundreds of human beings with my bulldozer and watch their guts squirt out.”

It affects both sides in a conflict.

"The reservist spent 186 days in the enclave until he sustained injuries to his knee, followed by hearing damage in February when a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG)" conflict as fighting from hamas, and others against the idf.

lionlass · 22/10/2024 07:58

Toomanywars · 22/10/2024 07:54

It affects both sides in a conflict.

"The reservist spent 186 days in the enclave until he sustained injuries to his knee, followed by hearing damage in February when a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG)" conflict as fighting from hamas, and others against the idf.

They are literally war criminals who have murdered 10s of thousands of women and children. I have no sympathy for them. They deserve to be feeling how they are feeling after what they have done.

Scirocco · 22/10/2024 07:59

lionlass · 22/10/2024 07:46

““Everything squirts out,” he added.
Zaken says he can no longer eat meat, as it reminds him of the gruesome scenes he witnessed from his bulldozer in Gaza, and struggles to sleep at night, the sound of explosions ringing in his head.”

I cannot believe we’re treating these monsters like they are the victims.

“Boo hoo it’s so hard for me to murder hundreds of human beings with my bulldozer and watch their guts squirt out.”

It's like the accounts of "I have PTSD from the murder I committed".

No, you have the beginnings of guilt. Which shows there might be some humanity in there.

If someone feels bad enough about using a bulldozer to crush people to death, they could, well, choose not to use a bulldozer to crush people to death.

People need to take personal responsibility for their actions in order to begin a journey of de-radicalisation and/or rehabilitation.

MissyB1 · 22/10/2024 08:10

Dulra · 21/10/2024 19:42

Did anyone see C4 news report from an illegal settler camp on the border with Gaza this evening? Settlers spouting disgusting hate filled rhetoric. Describing Palestinians as the infection in a cut that needs to be cleaned out. Suggesting Ireland and the UK would be happy to take them, mass deportations, the evil is so bad you have to do something with it.
Yes these can be dismissed as extremist views but they're there with the IDF supporting them and Isreali government ministers visiting and supporting them. It's so blatant what they're planning, literally waiting in the wings to enter Gaza when the time is right and the "evil is removed". None of this is going to help Israel in any way.

That report really affected me, I was literally shocked to the core, couldn't get to sleep last night for thinking about it. Did you notice the sneery way the young man spoke to Paraic (the reporter) when he asked where did he think the million or so Palestinians over in the smoke filled area across the border should go, the vile man replied "I'm sure England or Ireland will be happy to take them".

My 15 year old ds was watching too and said "mum do those people believe in a God? Because what do they think their God is going to say about this when they meet him?" Bloody good question son!

Dulra · 22/10/2024 08:14

MissyB1 · 22/10/2024 08:10

That report really affected me, I was literally shocked to the core, couldn't get to sleep last night for thinking about it. Did you notice the sneery way the young man spoke to Paraic (the reporter) when he asked where did he think the million or so Palestinians over in the smoke filled area across the border should go, the vile man replied "I'm sure England or Ireland will be happy to take them".

My 15 year old ds was watching too and said "mum do those people believe in a God? Because what do they think their God is going to say about this when they meet him?" Bloody good question son!

You have a very wise son, they were truly sick people. I know they are extremists but it is the support they are getting from the IDF and Israeli government that is so worrying. The fact that he feels so emboldened to say these words to an international reported knowing it will be playing globally, shocking

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