To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

[Gunnersforthecup]

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

I agree but I'm not sure they qualify as a gov or having their own people

They are a proscribed terrorist organisation and will have a radical and terrifying objective which is very far removed from anything really

Ever heard of the three nos of Khartoum? Your best guess is wrong.

You're right it's about intent. But it's also proportionality.

In Gaza, Israel has targeted a junior Hamas member and brought down an apartment block at the same time. I know the intent is Hamas which is a legitimate target, I know Hamas hides in civilian areas - but I also think there are serious questions of proportionality in how Israel has acted in Gaza.

I guess you can justify it to yourself however you want. Selecting a target that is civilians and bombing it is targeting civilians. It's not complicated.

Indeed the poster is hate filled.

The poster is maybe unaware that there are middle east countries at peace with Israel that don't have terrorist organisations killing Israelis.

Perhaps poster is also aware these terrorist organisations also kill their own people. Hezbollah also kill Lebanese, the Houthis also kill Yemenis. There are a number of Islamic extremist terrorist organisations that kill many Muslims, because they are just hate filled vile creatures.

We intend to kill only the terrorists is a different intent to we intend to kill the terrorists and don't mind who else we get on the way

Here you go @Lalaloveya , this poster found a better word for you to use moving forward. It's the proportionality of it all you seem to take issue with. Which is an entirely different thing and an entirely different conversation.

And I agree with you @StupidFarang , proportionality has definitely been an issue. The sheer devastation in Gaza is absurd.

Hoping for a peaceful two state solution in the future, and for all the hostages to be returned home.

It's not a civilian target if it's riddled with terrorists 🤦🏻‍♀️ Come on now, surely you can see that? A terrorist is a target. The surrounding civilians are not the targets. As you yourself said, it's not complicated. I'm really not sure what you're struggling with here.

No, it's not proportionality. It's deliberately hitting civilian targets. It's different.

If I'm struggling with anything it's the flippant attitude towards the deliberate killing of civilians. Also, the IDF says there are terrorists every time they bomb Gaza. They seem to see terrorists everywhere in Gaza. In fact, they count every man they kill in Gaza as a Hamas terrorist. So that's relevant to my point too.

They're not deliberately hitting civilian targets. They're deliberately targeting terrorists.

Until you understand what the words you're using mean, there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

And by the way, there are terrorists everywhere in Gaza. I didn't realise people were still in denial about Hamas and other terrorists hiding among civilians. I really thought it was common knowledge by now.

As opposed to Gaza, which I think Israel are royally messing up, this operation looks very clinical and super effective.

They start by injuring (or killing) every terrorist carrying a pager and then, with Hezbollah in total disarray, take out half their missiles and their leader! All in the course of a few days with limited amounts of collateral damage.

Hezbollah’s sole raison d’etre is the destruction of Israel and they have been lobbing missiles across the border for months, making a significant part of Israel (a tiny country) uninhabitable.

Hezbollah are living parasitically off the Lebanese.

I honestly think, bar the Iranian leadership, few are genuinely against what Israel are doing (though it may be politic of those living in Iran’s shadow to say so).

Absolutely this because we know those that keep populations in an apartheid condition are not often the good guys

Plenty of people on this board have been vehemently against the attacks on Hezbollah too. It's incredibly weird.

Imagine being so foolish* you openly support terrorists and terrorism in a public forum.

*Not the word I want to use, but the one I'll have to settle on in order to not be suspended from MN

@Humdingerydoo ,

‘Plenty of people on this board have been vehemently against the attacks on Hezbollah too. It's incredibly weird.’

I think there is a section of society who don’t have any realisation of what war is and how terrible it is. They somehow think Israel can defend itself without anyone getting hurt or dying.

Also we have a quite anti Israel media. It is amazing how many pictures of destruction I have seen within Palestine and Gaza but today, for the first time, I saw a very similar picture from within Israel, struck by a Hezbollah missile.

The BBC are a total disgrace, including their litigious chief correspondent. Why we have to pay a licence fee to be indoctrinated is beyond me.

Israel has a right to resist and has to be able to defend itself.

(Having said all the above, some in the Israeli government are blatantly racist, Netanyahu is dodgy to say the least and I am in favour of a proper two state solution, and Israel vacating the occupied territories).

People are calling hezbollah terrorists because they are. People call hamas terrorists because they are.

You do realise that both hezbollah and hamas are designated terrorist organisations don't you?

Just to be clear which group of people are you referring to?

Do you mean Hamas?

Amen to all of the above

Your isp address will be recorded at the place you post. Tracking down is so much easier nowadays as counter terrorism have found. Interesting supporting terrorists. Or could just want to goad. Not sure if just foolish as another says or what

You see herein lies the problem. This poster is basically calling all israelis "illegal settlers from Europe" (which doesn't even make sense since more than half of israelis originate from north Africa and the middle east). And also somehow justified acts of terror against a civilian population

I did report the post as it's hate speech and supporting terrorism. Let's see how biased the mumsnet moderation is today....

Indeed. Pure ignorance. Twitter and other social media is full of the rubbish that all Israelis come from Europe. Etc etc. Then go on to support terrorists.

One poster described Hezbollah's attacks on Israel on 8 October as "opening a support front for Gaza"