To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

[Gunnersforthecup]

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

Agreeing to a Palestinian state would go a long way. But Israel will never do that.

Well all of that is a given. The question is, how do you defend yourselves against ongoing aggression from two organisations, coming at you from two different directions, both of whom seek to wipe your nation state and your entire ethnicity off the face of the earth, while making sure all of those things are adhered to?

I was hoping for rather more specific, creative and practical solutions to that particular conundrum, rather than the most obvious, generic cut and paste type answers. We all know what should be happening in theory. It's how to achieve it in practise that I'm more interested in. If you have the answers then please enlighten us. Or do you prefer that Israel should cease to defend itself altogether than risk the death of a single innocent person?

The aggressive framing of the question makes it hard to answer. Where do you see the denial of a Palestinian state and the ongoing occupation in all this?

How to defend yourself?

Make Love not war

Share tea and cake

Discover your common humanity as the backdrop to resolve your differences

Back out of Palestine and any other land illegally occupied

All they are doing is increasing the number of people who hate them and would like to see them destroyed- meaning this long running problem will carry on running

Many terrorists but mostly innocent civilians. That's the whole difficulty with all this.

Ok, just to take one example from this post 'share tea and cake'. Many of the people tortured and murdered on 7 October were involved in the peace movement.

This fatuous nonsense is just a prescription for the people of Israel to roll over & be destroyed and it beggars belief that anyone has the fucking nerve to type it out. You are welcome to go out there and offer to make love to terrorists but let the people of Israel do what they have to do to defend themselves.

And what about when the other side considers all of Israel to be occupied, as per their official charter? Do you still think Israel should "back out" of the land then?

I agree with your post in theory, but in practice it's a whole lot more complicated than that.

And to be clear, I mean Hamas is the other side not all Palestinians. I don't consider Palestinians the enemy of Israel. I consider genocidal terrorists the enemy of Israel.

Yes. That's the point. They are targeting innocent civilians.

So according to you, Hezbollah are not terrorists and Hamas are not antisemitic. Are Hamas also not terrorists?

No, they're targeting the terrorists who live among the civilians.

Hamas aren't pro-Palestinian, they're anti-Israel. They have done nothing to further the Palestinian cause or to protect Palestinian people. They have done quite the opposite.

You answered the question above. They know they're definitely killing civilians. That's targeting. It's not nice but it's just fact.

No, that's not what targeting means. That's also not how facts work - something has to be true for it to be a fact.

Good attempt at trying to twist my words though! I guess people on here have had almost a year of practice in the art of word-twisting

My framing of the question isn't aggressive. It's just a very difficult and virtually impossible question to answer. I don't expect you to have the answer, but you expect Israel to have it.

If you don't know how Israel can defend itself against Hamas while guaranteeing it adheres totally to international humanitarian law at all times, given the circumstances it's working with (Egypt refusing to allow refugees across their border for starters) then just say so. Don't side step the question by bowling different questions at me.

This. People are so certain they know best. Time & time again they prove they've got nothing except 'turn the other cheek' & think that absolves them from what would happen.

If you're talking to me I didn't twist anything. You said "Many terrorists but mostly innocent civilians."

I'm just wondering if you acknowledge the occupation and the ongoing mistreatment of Palestinians. If you don't there's no point in answering your question.

Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation. Why aren’t we hearing anything from the Labanese government?

What an absolute cop out of an answer. There is all the point in the world. What I think about those two things is irrelevant and they in no way prevent you from suggesting solutions that eliminate risk to civilians while this war is ongoing. I'm sure we all want to see fewer casualties and far less suffering, hunger and displacement of innocents, especially children, regardless of which side we take.

You were trying to twist my words by changing the definition of targeting so that is would seem as though I was saying Israel targets civilians. Which they don't.

To understand the situation we need to understand how Israel and Iran are thinking.

Well everyone really.

Hezbollah, Lebanon and Iran plus Israel

If Hamas had shared tea and cake on October 7th we wouldn't be seeing this escalation now

The question was Israelis, not Israel as in the government. Be good if Iranians were asked if they want an ideological war with Israel.

There's a genuine conflcit between the Palestinains and Israelis which needs to be resolved. There is actually NO conflict between Iran and Israel or Lebanon and Israel. It's all ideology and geopolitics. I've met many Iranians over the years and I have good Iranian friends, they have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

Israel withdrew out of Lebanon and got Hezbollah on their doorstep (in violation of security council resolution 1701 to end the 2nd Lebanon War)
Israel withdrew out of Gaza and got Hamas firing missiles and 7/10.

Not sure this precedent of withdrawal in the absence of a stong deal and ironclad security arrangements (like in Sinai) is quite the path to defending yourself. It won't lead to everyone sitting around the campfire and singing kumbaya together.