To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

[Gunnersforthecup]

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

Possibly because Hezbollah has infiltrated itself into the Lebanese government.

Iranian dissidents are hugely supportive of Israel. They know what they're up against.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there is no conflict between Israel and Iran. Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian proxies.iran is supplying all the warfare to the terrorists

Also Iran and Syria effectively control Lebanon. The Lebanese government is on a tight rope and no even seems them as a significant party in this whole conflict.
Hezbollah is well better armed than the Lebanese army. It's no match.

It would be better for all if Hamas and Hezbollah were neutralised. I agree there are too many innocents caught in in this. The more targeted attacks against Hezbollah are the way forward.

This is a factor

I did see that the US had tried to support the Lebanese army at one point with funding but really make them strong enough and what would stop another Sudan happening?

Another country were absolutely terrible things are going on atm

If choosing and bombing a target that you know is civilians isn't targeting, I don't know what is.

What's the conflict exactly? What does Iran want from Israel? What compromises are needed from either side to reach peace? Of course it's a conflict, but it's a fake one, an ideological one and one that doesn't represent the iranian people either who generally have no problem with Israel, which is very different to the arab street.

BTW, I don't doubt Iran has supplied Hamas and supports Hamas but it's not a proxy the way that Hezbollah is. It's a very different relationship. Hezbollah is effectively an arm of the Revolutionary Guards whereas Hamas has its own agenda and the relationship is more of "your enemy's enemy is my friend".

@SharonEllis I couldn't agree more with the points you make, but these threads are quite futile. I would go and get some fresh air and take comfort that many normal people can see exactly who the bad guys are. Wishing you happiness and peace.

Israel withdrew out of Gaza and got Hamas firing missiles and 7/10

I think you're missing some highly relevant information from in between these two events.

This is what I was saying to @TwigletsAndRadishes. If you ignore the blockade of Gaza and treatment of Gazans going back years it's pointless debating with you. You can't just ignore the bits you don't like.

Indeed. Most of know who the terrorists are and want them to be neutralised.

They're choosing and bombing a target crawling with terrorists. That's targeting. Anyone else who gets killed / maimed / orphaned / made homeless aren't the targeted ones. The targets are vile, genocidal, murderous terrorists.

Maybe find a better word to describe whatever it is you're trying to say. Targeting isn't the right word.

Yikes. This rhetoric is disturbing.

Indeed hamas aren't pro Palestinian people they are just anti Israel. No use to anyone, not fit for anything.

I'm trying to use as clear wording as possible so we can avoid any further difficulties in understanding each other.

You seem to think innocent victims in Gaza are targeted. I'm saying they haven't been targeted and I'm saying I acknowledge that they're nonetheless innocent victims and that they're suffering in many, many different ways. I then pointed out a few ways in which they're suffering. Why do you find the acknowledgement of suffering in Gaza disturbing? Would you rather me deny it is happening? I don't really understand what you want from me. I'm acknowledging the devastation in Gaza while at the same time pointing out untruths being shared on this thread with regards to targeting.

While the blockade was poor strategy on the part of Israel, not effective and not humanitarian, the takeover of Hamas, a body devoted to the destructoin of Israel, actually happened in 2007. Since Hamas then totally took over, threw PA personnel off roofs and stuff like that,

Hamas began firing Qassam rockets into Israel back in 2001 and it only got worse since then.

Imagine if Hamas had focused on collecting the garbage and fixing the road and generally improving the lot of the Gazans? Imagine if they'd actually established a democracy with further elections and power sharing with the PA since then?

The question was what Israelis are thinking. What they are thinking is they evacuated every last settlement (painfully so) from Gaza and in exchange they got Hamas and more Qasams.

And not forgetting Lebanon and the way Hezbollah totally ignored the security counil resoultion (the ones which are supposed to be enforcable but UNIFIL just stood by) 1701 after israel withdrew from every last inch of Lebanon (as certified by the UN)

Yes, exactly. How are you going to persuade Israelis that a Palestinian state in WB won't just lead to 7/10 writ large given what's happened in Gaza and Lebanon. Back in the day, i had hoped that there would be a peace deal with Syria in exchange for the Golan Heights. Now I'm glad it didn't happen given how Syria has been taken over by Iran.

Again, you've just erased, or glossed over at best, Israel's blockade and mistreatment of Gazans.

It's about intent. If you select and bomb a target that you know is a refugee camp full of thousands of people living in tents, then you're targeting those people. You're accepting that you're intentionally killing civilians. That's illegal under the law of armed conflict and is morally repugnant.

I think maybe we disagree on the morality of deliberately killing innocent civilians and will have to agree to disagree on that point.

Indeed.

A proper government at least attempts to help its people. It almost as if hamas hate their own people second only to how much they hate Israel. They could have different priorities but they'd rather just hate as their primary concern and focus.

Exactly, it's about intent. The intent is to kill terrorists, not the people living with and around the terrorists. I don't understand how you're still struggling to understand what targeting means. You know it's to do with intent yet you somehow still continuously come to the incorrect conclusion. You can't just change the meaning of words to suit your preferred narrative. It's just not how it works.

There are plenty of words you could choose to describe what is happening to innocent people in Gaza. 'Targeting' is not one of them. Just choose a different, more appropriate, word and move on.

Oh and 'deliberately' won't do either.

They will see attacks like the October one again and again

I see you've dropped the tea and cake now it's more about what terrorists will do.

So it's all Israels fault that terrorist rape their women and girls and torture kidnap and murder. That's really what you are saying. Bizarre

This is true but you also have to remember that Israel is fighting an enemy who has zero regard for civilian lives, including their own side. (BTW I've seen the same insanity on the Israel extreme right who are entirely prepared to sacrifice the hostages to destroy Gaza for example) This makes it incredibly difficult to fight them.

When 7/10 happened it was totaly clear that it was going to be a disaster for Gaza. I will say, what i saw in Gaza was destruction for revenge as well as to achieve military aims (let's face it, one year later and the hsotages are still there and Hamas is still alive and kicking). I'm not an israel hater in any way but revenge is wrong and it should not be government policy and army discipline should prevent this when it's obvious that soliders are angry. Also the idea that Gaza would be starved to somehow put pressure on Hamas was clearly wrong and Israel reluctantly realised that this could not happen, thankfully.

In Lebanon, Israel is being far more careful and calculated and focusing on Hezbollah targets informed by good intelligence. I wish they'd operated like that in Gaza. Yes, every civilian death is a tragedy but it's inevitable in war even if not targeted.