Page 31 | How the hell did the Israeli's mange to cause the exploding pagers?

mids2019 · 2024-09-17T17:11:29+00:00

Just this is really ...how did they do it? Was this the secret service on steroids?

EasterIssland · 19/09/2024 12:37

SharonEllis · 19/09/2024 11:56

And we have denial of the validity of the state of Israel on some of these threads, referring to Israel as a coloniser etc. Every 'pro-Israel' poster that I am aware of is in support of a state for Palestinians.

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referring to Israel as a coloniser

isn’t that what the UN said yesterday and also want ICJ said back in may?

ThisOldThang · 19/09/2024 12:38

EasterIssland · 19/09/2024 12:36

does it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68673960.amp

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Are you gloating about the plight of hostages in Gaza?

TheOliveGoose · 19/09/2024 12:40

SharonEllis · 19/09/2024 12:22

I would call the West Bank an illegal occupation as determined by international law and widely accepted. Im talking about those who call the state of Israel from its inception a settler colonial state with no right to that state.

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So you accept that they are currently colonising? Have you asked everyone who calls Israel a colinizer what they mean because I see a lot of jumping to conclusions happen here, lots of 'oh so you think Israel has no right to exist' when the poster has suggested no such thing. Maybe next time when someone calls Israel a colinizer just ask what it is they mean, they might surprise you and be talking about Israels current colonisation of which they are a dictionary definition of.

gladius · 19/09/2024 12:40

EasterIssland · 19/09/2024 12:36

does it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68673960.amp

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Repulsive.

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 12:41

I see a lot of baseless allegations here. If you have specific examples of antisemitism on this thread, or of people celebrating Jewish deaths or wanting to destroy Israel, please report these posts. They are very serious allegations and must be reported... mumsnet will delete them.

As for berets question... it is nonsensical because it demands the reader to accept that Israel is the good guy and all others are terrorists. That in itself is the whole debate on this board. To demand that people ignore the lies in the post and the reality of the situation... well that is why people aren't answering and will not answer. The 'question' is entirely one sided and repeatedly refers to 'little collateral damage', which is just inflammatory and deserves no response.

SharonEllis · 19/09/2024 12:42

EasterIssland · 19/09/2024 12:36

does it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68673960.amp

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Yes, on the whole Israel has gone to huge lengths to protect its people. It has built a thriving democratic society & economy, protected, of necessity, by extensive military means, such as the defensive iron dome etc. Compare Hamas who diverted all their vast wealth into tunnels designed for offensive activities against Israel and the protection of its higher command (those that arent living elsewhere), attacking Israel with no thought to how they would protect their people. There are of course many in Israel who disagree with their current government 's strategy in the current war & to release the hostages and they exercise their right to express that very strongly

amigafan2003 · 19/09/2024 12:48

ScrollingLeaves · 19/09/2024 10:28

They got them specifically to avoid the use of mobile phones that the Israelis could easily trace.

A quick derail- the evident total lack of privacy of mobile phones is something I had ever been so aware of before.

Ditto the fact that devices could be booby trapped with explosives by batches of thousands at a time. This is an unsafe world.

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"This is an unsafe world."

If you are a terrorist.

EasterIssland · 19/09/2024 12:49

gladius · 19/09/2024 12:40

Repulsive.

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Indeed the fact Israel is arresting their citizens that don’t agree with the government

EasterIssland · 19/09/2024 12:51

amigafan2003 · 19/09/2024 12:48

"This is an unsafe world."

If you are a terrorist.

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It’s an unsafe world for anyone. If governments start tampering devices to explode them without being in control where that device is and who is in possession of it … then we are in a really unsafe world as next time it could be mobile phones that are meant to be for another terrorist group but by mistake it ended up in innocent citizens hands.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 19/09/2024 12:53

ToBeDetermined · 19/09/2024 11:22

And you know that the father was Hezbollah how?

I have just seen a recent report out of London that has updated the 24 deaths figure to

11 Hezbollah
12 civilians
1 unknown

In the absence of confirmation, the odds would indicate the girl’s family are at least equally likely to not be Hezbollah.

The total number of deaths may change if some of the thousands injured later succumb to their injuries.

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It was reported the father was a member of Hezbollah

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/lebanon-funeral-pager-attack.html

Hezbollah flags all over her funeral coffin. There are various reports from different media saying her father was a Hezbollah member!

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 19/09/2024 12:55

BeretInParis · 19/09/2024 10:34

I ponder this question a lot: if my neighbouring country (which is funded by a nefarious regime and stolen charitable funds) was bombing my country because not only does it want my land it has sworn to destroy all my people forever - and then start taking over the rest of the world - and I had to do/have the following to be safe(er), what is my next move?

Install an air defence system to ward off constant rocket attacks (the only country to need such a thing)
Build properties with safe rooms as shelter from those constant attacks
Have national service to ensure there is sufficient support and fighting people to ward off attacks (on at the moment, 7 fronts)
Enter into negotiations several times to concede land via a two state solution but be knocked back on all occasions because the only solution seen by the other side is the destruction of my country
Enter into negotiations with a terrorist organisation to release innocent hostages and be blamed by loud voices for the negotiation breakdown and it's all my fault, even though the other side are making unreasonable demands that threaten my country's security and survival
Even though i don't have to because my country's borders have been drawn, I purchase about 10% of my land from individuals so they can't doubt it's my land (but they still are fighting me and want it back)
Target the terrorist infrastructure their leaders built under schools, homes, mosques, hospitals, etc. to prevent its use as a base for more terrorist activity in the future (but warn civilians to move out of the way first, which allows the terrorists to move too)
Directly target terrorists through their communication channels to identify them (including Iran's ambassador, local MPs, etc.), slow down their plans, and take some of their fighting men out of circulation for a while, with very little collateral damage
Assassinate key players in the equivalent of a 9/11 style terrorist attack where innocents were massacred, just like the US did with Osama bin Laden, again with little collateral damage.

There are probably some other things too but you get the gist....

But seriously, what should I do?

I'm surrounded by many enemies who support each other and have louder voices (due to numbers) in the UN, for example, and so those voices against me are amplified. Shall I just roll over and die? Shall I just troop off to the gas chamber and press the proverbial 'on' switch now to make it easier for everyone?

No. My country fights because its very survival is at stake. We have the right to defend ourselves. That is war - as awful, inhumane, and awful as it is. Sitting in Western homes looking across the Med with a Western world view without (or with certainly very little) experience/understanding of warfare, history, politics, etc. - and too much social media consumption where people can have a view (with very little experience/understanding of warfare, history, politics, etc.) is naive and useless.

Israel is fighting terrorists. Many posters here seem to forget that - or even have a sneaking regard for them. So there seems to be the expectation that if Israel has to fight, the only way forward is for it to be 'clean' to be acceptable. Well terrorist don't fight clean. They are the very definition of dirty. They would have got dirty when they stole billions in aid to build their terror tunnels instead of helping their populations. Fighting clean kills you.

It's terrible that innocents die. Please don't assume that by using the term 'collateral damage' that I'm blase about the death and suffering of innocents. I'm not. It's horrific. However, I truly think some of the posters here would only be happy and cease their criticism of Israel if it ceased to exist (and it does have the right to exist).

What would you do? (And remember, it can't just be Israel in isolation. Iran is in play and Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, etc. all have agency too.)

@Auvergne63

So you've declined to say how the Nazis were defeated.

You're not the only person with links to the WWs. I'm not really sure why you think this makes you an authority?

Most MN users will have studied the WWs at school (as a minimum). Again, I'm not really sure why you think this makes you an authority?

Your 'eye for an eye dig' was directly misquoting Judaism & demonstrates your lack of knowledge about Judaism. You're not the only person on this thread to have done this.

Secondary school RE is not particularly advanced. I'd imagine that you don't routinely tell people of the other faiths you cited that you know best?

No nasty undertones, just highlighting the constant campaign of misinformation, demonization & delegitimisation of Israel on CITME. Not to mention the frequently deleted hate speech against Jews.

Anti Zionism is antisemitism. None so blind as those that will not see.

Interesting that no one has responded to the question above in good faith.

Would love to hear your thoughts?

YoYoYoYo12345 · 19/09/2024 12:55

"Hezbollah said two of its fighters were among the dead and threatened a “just punishment” for Israel. Later media reports said the son of the Hezbollah MP Ali Ammar also died in the explosions.

Hezbollah fighters in Syria were also injured in the attack, with several being treated in hospitals in Damascus, according to the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. Iran’s Revolutionary Guards-affiliated Saberin News reported that some guards in Syria had also been killed."

Riverrocksinastream · 19/09/2024 12:55

The realisiation of what Mossad can do, the intelligence that went into it, how long this must have been planned, the sophistication of it along with orchestrating it in another country, you really do have to wonder how they failed on October 7th. How did an unsophisticated border breach by terrorists on motorcycles, trucks, beach buggies, from an area locked down and monitored at a level none of us could possibly imagine, manage to carry out that attack. It is incredible to think it happened as it did.

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 12:55

amigafan2003 · 19/09/2024 12:48

"This is an unsafe world."

If you are a terrorist.

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Who decides who the terrorist is?

EasternStandard · 19/09/2024 12:57

HopeMumsnet · 19/09/2024 10:04

Hi all,
Re the question of whether Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. This has been an interesting discussion over the last couple of days and it's clear that the organisation is a complex entity.
However, the UK govt has it proscribed here. It is listed under the name Hizballah, which is perhaps why some Mumsnetters didn't see it before.
We would take our cues from that source and from this point we request no further attempt to paint the organisation otherwise.

Edited

@HelenHen this might help. There are laws here in the UK

1dayatatime · 19/09/2024 12:58

@Cillianlikegillian

"It's the others who are being destroyed that people have huge problems with - the children and the other innocent victims.

It's not ok to say, well this is all Hamas' fault, as Israel's bombs are dropped on families. Yes it is their fault but it's Israel's too then.

It's an impossible situation, I do know that, but to say people object to Israel dealing with terrorists is a disingenuous take on this. That's not the objection."

I agree with you but hasn't this been the same in every war or terrorism throughout history?

Either from one end of the spectrum of getting caught in the crossfire of a firefight or to the other of the spectrum being a civilian the bombing of Hiroshima. In every conflict there will be civilian casualties on the other side and whilst efforts are made to reduce them they will inevitably occur.

Taking Japan as an example the war was against the Japanese Government but it would have been impossible to win if any military action that could cause civilian casualties was forbidden.

SharonEllis · 19/09/2024 12:58

TheOliveGoose · 19/09/2024 12:40

So you accept that they are currently colonising? Have you asked everyone who calls Israel a colinizer what they mean because I see a lot of jumping to conclusions happen here, lots of 'oh so you think Israel has no right to exist' when the poster has suggested no such thing. Maybe next time when someone calls Israel a colinizer just ask what it is they mean, they might surprise you and be talking about Israels current colonisation of which they are a dictionary definition of.

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Yes, I have had numerous conversations on this subject here and elsewhere and its usually very obvious when people are talking about the West Bank, or the existence of the state of Israel at all. There are many many peolle who call the state as a whole a settler colonial enterprise but I have never yet come across anyone who can tell me where the settlers should go back to. Obviously I haven't asked 'everyone' thats a rather childish, and unrealistic, way of framing the question.

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 12:58

EasternStandard · 19/09/2024 12:57

@HelenHen this might help. There are laws here in the UK

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I didn't ask about hezbollah. It was a hypothetical question.

EasternStandard · 19/09/2024 12:59

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 12:58

I didn't ask about hezbollah. It was a hypothetical question.

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Well if you want to know about other terrorist organisations too you can look them up.

The law is clear on who you cannot support here in the UK

YoYoYoYo12345 · 19/09/2024 13:00

"Iran's ambassador to Lebanon, Mojtaba Amani, was injured by one of the blasts, but his family and Iranian officials said he was in a "good and stable condition". Anyone surprised someone connected to Iran had a Hezbollah pager!

"Hezbollah has announced the deaths of 12 fighters since Tuesday afternoon, including the son of the Hezbollah MP Ali Ammar. However, it has not given details on the locations and circumstances, saying only that they were “martyred on the road to Jerusalem" - a phrase it has been using to refer to fighters killed by Israel." These may have been pagers. They didn't say. All the same time frame.

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 13:01

SharonEllis · 19/09/2024 12:58

Yes, I have had numerous conversations on this subject here and elsewhere and its usually very obvious when people are talking about the West Bank, or the existence of the state of Israel at all. There are many many peolle who call the state as a whole a settler colonial enterprise but I have never yet come across anyone who can tell me where the settlers should go back to. Obviously I haven't asked 'everyone' thats a rather childish, and unrealistic, way of framing the question.

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It shouldn't be their choice and it's irrelevant. If they're illegal they should leave. It is their own problem as to where they should legally go.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/09/2024 13:02

amigafan2003 · 19/09/2024 12:48

"This is an unsafe world."

If you are a terrorist.

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Ha ha.

SharonEllis · 19/09/2024 13:05

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 13:01

It shouldn't be their choice and it's irrelevant. If they're illegal they should leave. It is their own problem as to where they should legally go.

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The state of Israel is not illegal and the Israeli people are not illegal. I am not talking about illegal settlements in the WB.

amigafan2003 · 19/09/2024 13:11

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 12:55

Who decides who the terrorist is?

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The international community - 26 countries in this case.

inamarina · 19/09/2024 13:12

HelenHen · 19/09/2024 13:01

It shouldn't be their choice and it's irrelevant. If they're illegal they should leave. It is their own problem as to where they should legally go.

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You seem to be responding to that bit:

”There are many many people who call the state as a whole a settler colonial enterprise but I have never yet come across anyone who can tell me where the settlers should go back to.”

It looks like pp was referring to people who see Isreal as a whole a “settler colonial enterprise”. Do you agree with those people?