"The case for genocide in Gaza"

[Auvergne63]

May this comes back to haunt him.
Influential Israeli national security leader makes the case for genocide in Gaza | Jewish Voice for Labour

What are your thoughts on the retired major that this thread is about? Do you agree with his words? Do you think are they are genocidal? What are your thoughts on the finance minister who agreed with every word he said?

If people would like to engage in discussions about other aspects of Middle East politics and conflicts, threads could be started. None of which would change that what is happening in Palestine is not ok.

We are commenting on CITME Board! Take your issue up with the main stream news companies whose reports we are responding to. It has been pretty much headline news since October. We're not unusual here to be discussing it.
Why are you here so often discussing it?

Plus being against the Israeli governments actions in Gaza does not mean people are anti Israel so stop conflating the two.

The man in the original post's article seems quite keen on killing Palestinians. And there seems to be a distinct absence of people saying that's not ok.

Yes to do so would be anti-semitic according to some

What are your thoughts on staying on topic, not derailing and opening your own threads for other conflicts? Many of us would appreciate if instead of derailing and whatabouttery we could discuss a topic

Since there is so much endemic derailing on all CITME, I would say that it seems acceptable practice but I do not like it.

Great, you'll be happy to keep on track then! What are your thoughts on the retired major that this thread is about? Do you agree with his words? Do you think are they are genocidal? What are your thoughts on the finance minister who agreed with every word he said?

Well, he seems to be convinced that there are many, many people in Gaza who are complicit in their desire to annihilate Israel and that they pose a threat:
"“They are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population that enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”

This is an English translation and it is not clear whether he means the entire Gazan population or the population that "enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”

I do not know if the entire population" enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”

If it did, then clearly, that is a concern.

However, I do not condone any proven indiscriminate killing.

I will emphasise that the article is in Hebrew and therefore you should not be relying upon the English translation provided for nuance issues and inaccuracies.

You do realise don't you that this "rag" has been criticised for anti-semitism and anti-Israel bias.

"While Mondoweiss has received praise for its content, it has also been criticized, with much of the criticism coming from people and organizations with differing opinions on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. This criticism has often included allegations of antisemitism.
In 2010, Mondoweiss was criticized by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs for publishing a series of cartoons which they stated expressed "anti-Israelism, a more recent category of anti-Semitism".[46]
Between 2010 and 2011, Tablet magazine published three articles in which Mondoweiss and other blogs, were criticized. The articles described Weiss as a "Jew-baiter" and "intensely anti-Israel", saying his site was "obsessed with Israel and the machinations of the U.S. Israel lobby" and laden with "sweeping and unsubstantiated rhetoric".[47][48][49] Weiss responded to allegations in Tablet, by stating that the magazine had "smeared" him and several other bloggers as Jew-baiters.[50] Walt stated that Smith's article contained "not a scintilla of evidence" that "Weiss or I have written or said anything that is remotely anti-Semitic, much less that involves 'Jew-baiting'. There's an obvious reason for this omission: None of us has ever written or said anything that supports Smith's outrageous charges."[51]
In 2012, the Algemeiner Journal described Mondoweiss as "Purveyors of Anti-Semitic Material".[52] According to Algemenier and the Anti-Defamation League, Mondoweiss and Philip Weiss have received grants from Ron Unz's Unz Foundation.[53][54]
Armin Rosen, a Media Fellow with The Atlantic, criticized Peter Beinart's blog, Open Zion (which appears in The Daily Beast) for publishing an article by Alex Kane because he is Mondoweiss's "Staff Reporter". Rosen wrote that "Mondoweiss often gives the appearance of an anti-Semitic enterprise."[4]
Robert Wright, a Senior Editor at The Atlantic, responded to Rosen's article, writing "This tarring of Kane by virtue of his association with Mondoweiss would be lamentable even if Rosen produced a convincing indictment of Mondoweiss, showing that it indeed evinces anti-Semitism."[55] James Fallows, a national correspondent for The Atlantic concurred with Wright's response to Rosen.[56] Alex Kane, Adam Horowitz, and Philip Weiss responded in Mondoweiss arguing that Rosen's article, "is about nothing more than policing the discourse on Israel".[57]
Later that year, the Algemeiner Journal published another article criticising Mondoweiss for its associations with Judith Butler because of her comments describing Islamist movements, including those of the militant variety such as Hamas and Hezbollah, as "social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left".[58]
In 2013, Peter Beinart, writing for The Daily Beast, accused Mondoweiss of "ignoring human rights abuse unless it can be linked to America or capitalism or the West", and said that "By admitting that they're more interested in human rights violations when Israel commits them than when Hamas does, Horowitz and Roth are implying that they don't really see human rights as universal".[59] Later in the year Commentary magazine accused Mondoweiss of being complicit in an "effort to delegitimize Jewish rights".[60]

Journalist Bradley Burston, writing for Haaretz, described Mondoweiss as "avowedly anti-Israel" in reference to its coverage of the 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers.[62]
In 2015, David Bernstein, writing for The Washington Post, called the website a "hate site", and listed quotes from Weiss that he said were anti-Semitic. This included Weiss' claim that "the Israel lobby ... reflected a contract the American establishment had made with Jews to drive the economy in the 1970s",[63] which Bernstein likened to a belief in an "Elders of Zion type group". It was also described as a hate site in the book Anti-Zionism on Campus by Andrew Pessin.[64]
According to Elliot Kaufman, the Vice President of Cardinal for Israel, a Stanford University group, writing in The Stanford Review, Mondoweiss "often publishes astonishingly anti-Semitic material, using classic anti-Semitic imagery such as depicting Jews as spiders, cockroaches, or octopuses with tentacles controlling others, and Holocaust inversion. Its hatred of Israel is as deep as it is vicious."[65]
In 2018 Israeli journalist Amira Hass cited Mondoweiss as a must-read venue for those wanting to understand Israeli policy regarding Palestinians.[66]"

So given the dubious nature of this, I can provide no comment upon it.

It would be wrong of me to comment upon an article that has been translated and written about in a "blog" hat has been severely criticised for its bias.

You can rely upon it as gospel if you like though.

Suggesting the countries supporting the case at the ICJ are doing so because they are antisemitic is a pretty big accusation to make with little to no evidence to back up your claim.

A pretty big accusation? Really?

Let’s take Turkey, for example.

I need only look at Turkey’s human rights record, the antisemitism that can be traced back long before the creation of Israel and their refusal to acknowledge the genocide that they committed, to be wary of their intentions.

I don’t have time to do this all day, but I stand by everything I have said.

Ok so to confirm you deem the following countries antisemitic with next to no evidence?
South Africa
Colombia
Turkey
Libya
Egypt
Maldives
Mexico
Ireland
Chile
Palestine
Spain.

And you don't consider that a big accusation.
It's a pretty poor defence to be honest.

Given they are quoted I will take what they've said as proof of what they said, but agree the translation may not be 100% accurate so if you can find what you may consider a more accurate translation we can look at that.

Criticised for its bias by :

the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs - and Israeli think tank

Tablet magazine - a conservative online magazine focussed on Jewish news

The Algemeiner journal - a Jewish journal widely read by Hasidic jews

The Anti Defamation League - a Jewish advocacy group.

Hardly surprising.

Sorry but I have been at work the last 24h so couldn't post.
Is it me or do some posters appear to be able to read but are not able to understand what they read?
This thread is about Giora Eiland, who might be retired but is still an adviser to the minister of defence, who is advocating for a genocide in Gaza.
My thread is not about posters'opinions on what consists a genocide or if it's a genocide or not a genocide, although if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a fair assumption to call it a duck.
I found Eiland's article on Jewish Voice for Labour.I would think this article could be found in its original language if people took the time to look for it. I agree that when you translate a text, you might lose some of its "essence". I am bilingual (English is my second language) and I understand the pitfalls of translation.
Another article you might find interesting.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-11-23/ty-article-opinion/.premium/giora-eilands-monstrous-gaza-proposal-is-evil-in-plain-sight/0000018b-f84b-

Yes, I consider many of those countries to have problems with antisemitism. To be antisemitic.

And you don't consider that a big accusation.

Not at all.

There are also many countries that I consider to have problems with racism and misogyny, to be racist and misogynistic, yet I could never imagine a situation whereby discussing that would result in someone saying “that’s a big accusation”.

It’s such a bizarre thing to say. Like it offends you, personally.

Antisemitism (the world’s oldest hatred) has existed and persisted in many forms for over 2,000 years. Everywhere. Do you consider it to have just disappeared, overnight, of it’s own volition? Has it just suddenly ceased to be a problem? After all this time? Just, disapperated into the ether?

You and so many people on this board can’t see it, anywhere. So where has all the antisemitism gone?

What are your views on what the article is about? Do you agree to his call to genocide? This is the subject of this thread after all.

It is the subject of this thread - but I was answering a question that someone asked me.

Is that okay?

I’ve been posting on Mumsnet for years and only twice has someone ever commented something like this to me. Both times on this thread.

What’s up with that?

I have just read that, thank you for posting it. I couldn’t get the link to work but found it through archive ph.

As not everyone feels confident about finding articles there I thought it might help to copy it:

Haaretz (Israeli newspaper)

Opinion
Giora Eiland's Monstrous Gaza Proposal Is Evil in Plain Sight

November 23 2023
Gideon Levy

Eiland, not a well man, who has even written a book about his suffering, has an idea: Epidemics in Gaza are good for Israel. “After all, severe epidemics in the southern Strip will bring victory closer and reduce fatalities among IDF soldiers,” he wrote this week in Yedioth Ahronoth. One only has to wait for the daughters of Hamas’ leaders to contract the plague, and we’ve won.

Eiland, not a well man, who has even written a book about his suffering, has an idea: Epidemics in Gaza are good for Israel. “After all, severe epidemics in the southern Strip will bring victory closer and reduce fatalities among IDF soldiers,” he wrote this week in Yedioth Ahronoth. One only has to wait for the daughters of Hamas’ leaders to contract the plague, and we’ve won.

Eiland, in the role of Mother Theresa, an officer and a gentleman in the world’s most moral army, made a Nazi proposal and no storm broke out. Anyone who attributes genocide to Israel is anti-Semitic, after all. Just imagine a European general proposing to starve a nation, or to kill it with an epidemic – the Jews, for instance. Imagine spreading a plague because it would promote the war effort. All is fair in war, and now it’s ok to suggest anything and everything you’ve dreamed of and never dared to bring up. Political correctness has been turned upside down. Anyone can be Meir Kahane, nobody may be human. It’s ok to propose genocide, but wrong to pity the children of Gaza. It’s ok to propose ethnic cleansing, but it's wrong to be shocked by Gaza’s punishment.

It’s no longer only the right. It’s the mainstream. Yesh Atid's MK Ram Ben Barak supports voluntary transfer, the moderate minister Gila Gamliel is also in favor. The Foreign Ministry said she doesn’t represent the government. Yes, she does, and not only the government.

Monstrousness has become correct, diabolism has penetrated the center and even left of center. Another war or two, and everyone will be Kahane.

We haven’t yet recovered from Hamas’ brutality, and already we are being inundated with all this goodness — not only from the extreme right and the settlers, but from the heart of the Israeli center. Apparently, there is horrific cruelty and correct cruelty. Hamas are animals, but the proposal to spread disease is legitimate. One of the most dangerous occurrences to be born in this war is unfolding before our eyes: the standardization, legalization and normalization of evil.

It’s no longer only the right. It’s the mainstream. Yesh Atid's MK Ram Ben Barak supports voluntary transfer, the moderate minister Gila Gamliel is also in favor. The Foreign Ministry said she doesn’t represent the government. Yes, she does, and not only the government.

Monstrousness has become correct, diabolism has penetrated the center and even left of center. Another war or two, and everyone will be Kahane.

We haven’t yet recovered from Hamas’ brutality, and already we are being inundated with all this goodness — not only from the extreme right and the settlers, but from the heart of the Israeli center. Apparently, there is horrific cruelty and correct cruelty. Hamas are animals, but the proposal to spread disease is legitimate. One of the most dangerous occurrences to be born in this war is unfolding before our eyes: the standardization, legalization and normalization of evil.

A society that so disregards reality and is so indifferent to the suffering of the nation it declared war on raises moral mutations like Eiland. You can be sure he thinks his suggestion isn’t in any way tainted, all he did was make a reasonable suggestion that serves Israel’s interest. What other consideration is there, anyway, except Israel’s interest? International law is for the weak, morality for the philosophizers, humanism for the bleeding hearts. And really, what’s wrong with a plague in Gaza? Only one thing: it could infect Israel too. In fact, it already has.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

Some fairly shocking tweets from Israel's social media today suggesting that civilians aren't really civilians. This is genocidal rhetoric.

https://x.com/Israel/status/1800447973962424697?t=HX_9KTN6B-NJZWUKvuIl5g&s=19

x.com/Israel/status/1800441176740536611?t=zkH_X7IifMLa2khNENjBSA&s=19

Who put that incitement advertisement out, do you know?

Your silence over my questions can mean:

1. You agree with him.
2. You don't but saying so would be undermine your beliefs.
3. You couldn't care less. To be fair, all the other pro Israeli posters have stayed well clear of this thread, so thank you for having the courage of your convictions.

And then Israel wonders why the World's sympathy for them is often qualified. Mad isn't it. I think the power of social media is excellent though, as it means debunking of pro-Israeli propaganda is widespread - even if wallies like Sunak follow their own odd views instead of representing the views of those who elected them.