Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East
ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 22:44

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 22:29

Don’t worry Connie, you are not alone in questioning anyone’s sincerity.

Where were you when all of this was going on in Syria? How does this war differ from Syria? From Yemen?

Do you really think any of this is normal?

No. Perhaps you should go back and read my first post on this thread.

I just don’t consider it genocide.

We in Europe were gifted peace by our ancestors, but we have forgotten the horrors of war. Most of us are seeing the horrors of war for the first time, we are seeing the true cost of war for the first time, and we are having a very normal human reaction to it.

That doesn’t make it genocide.

No, it's the war crimes that make it genocide.

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 22:48

@Vivi0

"I just don’t consider it genocide."

I do.

I won't bore you with the many countries, prominent academics, human rights organisations, aid agencies, international doctors in Gaza, the ICC, the UN and the many Jews in Israel and abroad who disagree with you. You've heard and seen it all.

PearlKoala · 10/06/2024 22:52

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 22:42

I can keep up with my own posts perfectly fine, thanks.

As I already said, I had no idea what you were talking about.

But now that you’ve clarified, no, I don’t want to explain anything because it has been done to death on this board and I have neither the time nor inclination to waste my time playing a game of table tennis with dates and statistics.

I have said all that I wanted to.

I’ll leave you all to it.

It's up to you. I mean personally if I was showing massive double standards and dismissing 100s of deaths I would want to clear things up but if you don't want to explain why you describe Palestinian deaths in 2023 as irrelevant history but Israeli deaths in 2023 aren't then that's your lookout.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/06/2024 23:01

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 21:53

I think I already acknowledged this when I asked you how far back in time you wanted to go regarding the many conflicts here.

Or could you comprehend for a moment that both were a response, a resistance to decades of their people treated as less than 3rd class citizens in their own land.

How is this relevant? I don’t recall the ANC or IRA carrying out mass rape or burning babies alive. I don’t remember them cutting off women’s breasts or torturing and mutilating civilians. Certainly not murdering 1,400 of them. Is this what you consider to be resistence? Do you think rape is resistence?

Re “Mass rape”
and “burning babies”

You may have missed a Times investigative report last weekend which was free to read them but now you need to find it on archive ph with this headline:

Israel says Hamas weaponised rape. Does the evidence add up?
The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

One paragraph refers to the story of babies,

.Yossi, a volunteer from another religious group called United Hatzalah, told the reporters he had seen a “pyramid of bodies”, although no such thing was found. His description seemed to echo a photograph of a mountain of corpses at the crematorium mortuary at Dachau concentration camp. The now debunked story of the pregnant woman and her slaughtered foetus is well known from the pogroms. Many other erroneous tales involved babies — one Zaka figure claimed to have found a baby baked alive in an oven.

another paragraph,

Patten spoke movingly of her encounters with communities left traumatised by the terror attacks. “I saw the pain in their eyes,” she said. “It was a catalogue of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing, torture and other horrors.” But she also hit back with unusual force against Israel’s refusal to look into the allegations by Palestinian women — to “believe Palestinian women”, in its own cadence — both in the present climate, where detentions have soared, and in the past, over decades, in which such allegations have been raised.

You might be interested in this AP May 22 article too,
How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

Then there was this by Haaretz December 2023 which has to be read in archive ph too using the headline:

Hamas Committed Documented Atrocities. But a Few False Stories Feed the Deniers
The extensive evidence of crimes against humanity committed by Hamas terrorists on October 7 should not be contaminated by unverified stories disseminated by Israeli search and rescue groups, army officers and even Sara Netanyahu

Excerpt referring to the stories about babies,

The report above was later quoted on social media, often referenced as “dozens of beheaded babies,” though sometimes it was “burnt babies” or “hanged babies.” For example, the Foreign Ministry published an account by Col. Golan Vach from the Home Front Command, who said that in one house he found the bodies of eight burnt babies.

None of these investigative reports mean Hamas did not commit mass murder and atrocities, did not kill any children, or that no one was raped. It does however show that some stories that were widely circulated
were not true.

FILE - Volunteers from the ZAKA rescue service remove blood stains from a public bomb shelter on a road near the Israeli-Gaza border in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 Hamas attack, Nov. 20, 2023. Some allege the accounts of sexual assault were purposely c...

How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war

The United Nations and other organizations have presented credible evidence that Hamas militants committed sexual assault during their Oct. 7 attack in southern Israel.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:10

ScrollingLeaves · 10/06/2024 23:01

Re “Mass rape”
and “burning babies”

You may have missed a Times investigative report last weekend which was free to read them but now you need to find it on archive ph with this headline:

Israel says Hamas weaponised rape. Does the evidence add up?
The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

One paragraph refers to the story of babies,

.Yossi, a volunteer from another religious group called United Hatzalah, told the reporters he had seen a “pyramid of bodies”, although no such thing was found. His description seemed to echo a photograph of a mountain of corpses at the crematorium mortuary at Dachau concentration camp. The now debunked story of the pregnant woman and her slaughtered foetus is well known from the pogroms. Many other erroneous tales involved babies — one Zaka figure claimed to have found a baby baked alive in an oven.

another paragraph,

Patten spoke movingly of her encounters with communities left traumatised by the terror attacks. “I saw the pain in their eyes,” she said. “It was a catalogue of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing, torture and other horrors.” But she also hit back with unusual force against Israel’s refusal to look into the allegations by Palestinian women — to “believe Palestinian women”, in its own cadence — both in the present climate, where detentions have soared, and in the past, over decades, in which such allegations have been raised.

You might be interested in this AP May 22 article too,
How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

Then there was this by Haaretz December 2023 which has to be read in archive ph too using the headline:

Hamas Committed Documented Atrocities. But a Few False Stories Feed the Deniers
The extensive evidence of crimes against humanity committed by Hamas terrorists on October 7 should not be contaminated by unverified stories disseminated by Israeli search and rescue groups, army officers and even Sara Netanyahu

Excerpt referring to the stories about babies,

The report above was later quoted on social media, often referenced as “dozens of beheaded babies,” though sometimes it was “burnt babies” or “hanged babies.” For example, the Foreign Ministry published an account by Col. Golan Vach from the Home Front Command, who said that in one house he found the bodies of eight burnt babies.

None of these investigative reports mean Hamas did not commit mass murder and atrocities, did not kill any children, or that no one was raped. It does however show that some stories that were widely circulated
were not true.

None of these investigative reports mean Hamas did not commit mass murder and atrocities, did not kill any children, or that no one was raped. It does however show that some stories that were widely circulated were not true.

You are absolutely right that doesn’t mean that Hamas did not commit mass murder and atrocities, did not kill any children, or that no one was raped. You are doing a good job of creating doubt, though. Well done you.

What I mentioned was absolutely not debunked.

Re “Mass rape”
and “burning babies”

Israel released photographs of charred remains of infants because of people like you claiming it did not happen.

Journalists were privately shown testimony of festival survivors recounting harrowing accounts of rape and gang rape, where women were murdered before, during or after rape.

Shame on you.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/06/2024 23:13

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:10

None of these investigative reports mean Hamas did not commit mass murder and atrocities, did not kill any children, or that no one was raped. It does however show that some stories that were widely circulated were not true.

You are absolutely right that doesn’t mean that Hamas did not commit mass murder and atrocities, did not kill any children, or that no one was raped. You are doing a good job of creating doubt, though. Well done you.

What I mentioned was absolutely not debunked.

Re “Mass rape”
and “burning babies”

Israel released photographs of charred remains of infants because of people like you claiming it did not happen.

Journalists were privately shown testimony of festival survivors recounting harrowing accounts of rape and gang rape, where women were murdered before, during or after rape.

Shame on you.

Rather than saying ‘Shame on you’ why not read those articles?

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:14

@Vivi0

You're not seriously invoking the "burning / beheaded babies" defence?

Which has been debunked entirely. Even Israel has stopped this nonsense claim.

Meanwhile, as I said earlier, prior to Oct 7th, in 2023 alone (not the dim and distant past) 506 civilians including 120 children in the West Bank murdered.

But it started on Oct 7th?

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:20

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 22:44

No, it's the war crimes that make it genocide.

Sorry, that’s not possible. Committing war crimes is not genocide.

Hamas carried out war crimes on 7 October.

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:21

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:14

@Vivi0

You're not seriously invoking the "burning / beheaded babies" defence?

Which has been debunked entirely. Even Israel has stopped this nonsense claim.

Meanwhile, as I said earlier, prior to Oct 7th, in 2023 alone (not the dim and distant past) 506 civilians including 120 children in the West Bank murdered.

But it started on Oct 7th?

Please, please, please - show me where I mentioned beheading babies?

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:21

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:20

Sorry, that’s not possible. Committing war crimes is not genocide.

Hamas carried out war crimes on 7 October.

Oh dear.

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:23

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:21

Oh dear.

Oh dear what?

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:24

Taking hostages is a war crime. Is that genocide?

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:26

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:24

Taking hostages is a war crime. Is that genocide?

No.

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:27

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:26

No.

I know that.

But @ConnieCounter seems confused.

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:30

Carpet bombing, destroying hospitals, homes, schools, universities and every means of human survival, whilst cutting off water and electricity.

Is that genocide?

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 23:33

Yes, October 7th was a genocide.

https://"The report of the Lancet Commission on medicine, Nazism, and the Holocaust, released in November 2023, calls for this history to be required for all health professions education, to foster morally courageous health professionals who speak up when necessary.

Main body

The report was released a month after Hamas’ October 7 invasion of Israel, with the accompanying massacre of over 1200 people, taking of civilian hostages, and gender-based violence. These acts constitute crimes against humanity including genocide.

Post-October 7, war in Gaza resulted, with a legitimate objective of Israel defending itself within international law. The authors discuss an accompanying Statement to the report condemning Hamas crimes and denouncing the perpetrators’ use of their own civilians as human shields, including in healthcare facilities, and with the Hamas attack unleashing immense and ongoing suffering in Israel and beyond. With some exceptions, the medical literature shows a marked absence of condemnation of Hamas atrocities and includes unsubstantiated criticisms of Israel’s military. "

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11010344/

The Hamas massacre of Oct 7, 2023, and its aftermath, medical crimes, and the Lancet commission report on medicine, Nazism, and the Holocaust

The report of the Lancet Commission on medicine, Nazism, and the Holocaust, released in November 2023, calls for this history to be required for all health professions education, to foster morally courageous health professionals who speak up when neces...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11010344

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:37

@keenforhelp

If 1,200 is genocide, what would you call 37,000?

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:39

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:27

I know that.

But @ConnieCounter seems confused.

I'm not confused. I'm dismayed.

Weren't you leaving?

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:44

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:39

I'm not confused. I'm dismayed.

Weren't you leaving?

Dismayed at what? A statement of fact?

Saying that committing war crimes is not genocide is a statement of fact.

What on earth are you dismayed about?

Weren't you leaving?

Also, are you the thread police?

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:44

Funny how the bar is set ever so slightly higher (ICJ high) when Palestinian genocide is claimed but a short description of a report is fine to prove genocide committed against Israelis.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:45

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:44

Dismayed at what? A statement of fact?

Saying that committing war crimes is not genocide is a statement of fact.

What on earth are you dismayed about?

Weren't you leaving?

Also, are you the thread police?

Dismayed that you don't grasp that 2 things can happen at once. Or within the same 8 month period. Genocide and war crimes.

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:46

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:30

Carpet bombing, destroying hospitals, homes, schools, universities and every means of human survival, whilst cutting off water and electricity.

Is that genocide?

Well, none of that seems to have been considered genocide in Syria.

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:53

@Vivi0

"Well, none of that seems to have been considered genocide in Syria."

The "their genocide is worse than ours" defence.

Scirocco · 10/06/2024 23:54

People have been viewing events in Syria as genocidal for years.

The man in the OP seems particularly keen on genocide in Palestine, though. And the lack of criticism or consequences suggests others may well share his enthusiasm.

Vivi0 · 10/06/2024 23:56

AhNowTed · 10/06/2024 23:53

@Vivi0

"Well, none of that seems to have been considered genocide in Syria."

The "their genocide is worse than ours" defence.

No - it’s not that at all.

I have specifically asked what makes this conflict different from other conflicts that are not considered genocide and so far, no one has been able to answer me.