"The case for genocide in Gaza"

[Auvergne63]

May this comes back to haunt him.
Influential Israeli national security leader makes the case for genocide in Gaza | Jewish Voice for Labour

I don’t think it is a war; it is a war. How could you possibly characterise it otherwise?

The other side has primitive rockets.

The other side tortured, raped, murdered and mutilated 1,400 men, women, children and elderly people by hand. Just because their weaponry is inferior, does not that mean they can commit mass slaughter, rape and torture of civilians with impunity.

You were all defending Iran’s right to retaliate following Israel hitting one of their consulate buildings and declaring it an “act of war”.

What was October 7th, if not an act of war?

I have.

I can’t see.

Could you explain to perhaps help me see?

You are the one who said the Geneva convention disagrees. I can’t see how it does.

None of these posts actually seem to respond to the original post's point; that a rather senior person is quoted as expressing statements of genocidal intent, which have not led to any significant censure or criticism from elsewhere in the government or military.

The "war" didn't start on Oct 7th.

Prior to Oct 7th, in 2023 alone, Israel murdered 506 civilians in the West Bank, 120 of them children.

What would you have the Palestinians do? Wave the white flag?

Say yeah OK, bulldoze our homes and take our land.

Get real.

I mean if you read it and still don't understand I can't really help you. I have to assume you're one of those who don't believe it's genocide because it's Israel.

How far back in time do you want to go throwing statistics about atrocities committed by either side at each other?

10 years? 20 years? 80 years?

We could be here a long time.

There have been many conflicts here. This one, the most recent, very much began on 7 October.

Perhaps you should get real - what country on this planet would not respond to the torture, rape, murder and mutilation of 1,400 of their civilians? Go on - name me one country who would not respond.

Especially as whatever it is called, Biden is funding and arming it.

Have you any comment to make on the OP? The point of the thread?

@Vivi0

Can I ask you a question.

Do you think the war in apartheid South Africa started with the first ANC bullet?

Or the war in Northern Ireland started with the first IRA bomb?

Or could you comprehend for a moment that both were a response, a resistance to decades of their people treated as less than 3rd class citizens in their own land.

I mean, if you are not prepared to explain your position, I guess you should stop claiming that the Geneva convention disagrees that this is not genocide.

I have to assume you're one of those who don't believe it's genocide because it's Israel.

The arrogance to assume the only reason a person wouldn’t agree that this is genocide is because they are a hard line Israel supporter!

I don’t believe it’s genocide because I don’t understand what is happening in this conflict that differs from and did not happen in other recent conflicts in the past 20 years. Or in Wars that would be considered just. Or any conflict, really. What exactly is it that constitutes genocide?

I did, but now I’m responding to other people’s comments to me.

Is that okay with you?

I'm actually sick of copying and pasting this for people who deny genocide but here we go again.

"Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in
whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

The Israeli government has told us in words and actions their intent, and they've carried out (a)-(c) on that list without a shadow of a doubt.

Do you think the Hamas attack was resistance?

You haven't though, made a comment on the topic of thread, which is the article linked. What do you think about the words used by this retired major, do you find it acceptable? Do you think they were genocidal? What do you think of the Finance minister who said he agreed with every word? Do you think both of these men should have kept their jobs?

I think I already acknowledged this when I asked you how far back in time you wanted to go regarding the many conflicts here.

Or could you comprehend for a moment that both were a response, a resistance to decades of their people treated as less than 3rd class citizens in their own land.

How is this relevant? I don’t recall the ANC or IRA carrying out mass rape or burning babies alive. I don’t remember them cutting off women’s breasts or torturing and mutilating civilians. Certainly not murdering 1,400 of them. Is this what you consider to be resistence? Do you think rape is resistence?

She was talking about 2023, the year Oct 7 happened. Is talking about Oct 7 going back in time? Will we just forget Oct 7 happened because how far back in time do you want to go?

But (a) - (c) on that list have been carried out in other conflicts that are not considered to be genocide.

So how does this war differ from, say, the war in Syria? That isn’t considered to be a genocide, yet (a) - (c) were endemic to that. In fact, (a) - (c) are endemic to most wars, are they not? Yemen, Ukraine etc.

That is what I don’t understand. What is Israel actually doing that wasn’t or isn’t happening in any other conflict?

Well fortunately, your opinion that a-e have been carried out counts for naught.

I disagree that the Israeli govt have told us that.

My opinion, also counting for naught is that none of these have occurred in the attempt to dismantle terrorist battalions and encountered human shields in a pursuit to rescue hostages, and baruch hashem managed it yesterday.

Just my opinion, you understand.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.

The original post. In case anyone has any explanation of why what was quoted might not be rather bad? I'm struggling to think of any way in which it might not be.

To show genocide, you have to show there is an intent to destroy a part of a group of people based on their identity.

This was the basis of the South Africa case.

There are many war crimes committed by Israel but they have to convince the judges these were done to destroy the population.

Now, I think Israel has used the idea that the mass deaths are a by-product of military targets and there intent is to strike the targets and not the civilans (albeit beyond usual norms of collateral damage).

I think the inital starvation tactics and the "Where's Daddy" program will likely be ruled acts of genocide as the systematic deaths overwhelm the minimal military value.

Can you not keep up with your own posts?

@AhNowTed said Prior to Oct 7th, in 2023 alone, Israel murdered 506civilians in the West Bank,120 of them children.

And you came back with how far back do you want to go 10 years, 20 years?

I am pointing out that she wasn't 'going back in time any more than talking about Oct 7 is 'going back in time'. Tbh it felt like you were trying to minimise and wave away all of those deaths as unimportant and that is why instead of actually addressing her post you did a dismissing 'How far back in time...' bit. When clearly she wasn't going back in time at all.

Perhaps you weren't dismissing though and would like to address the deaths of Palestinians that happened in 2023 prior to Oct 7? Or maybe explain why to you Oct 7 makes a starting point but the deaths of Palestinians don't?

Well given you are quoting "crimes" that have been debunked months ago I have to question your sincerity.

I don't know any other war where the population is trapped while essential aid is deliberately denied, all civilian infrastructure is damaged or destroyed,refugee camps, homes and hospitals sheltering people are bombed to bits, the state has declared that all men are considered to be terrorists, men are rounded up and tortured and sexually abused and the list goes on. Also most wars involve 2 armies. The Palestinians have no army protecting them, no basic essentials to survive and they have nowhere to go.

Do you really think any of this is normal?

Don’t worry Connie, you are not alone in questioning anyone’s sincerity.

Where were you when all of this was going on in Syria? How does this war differ from Syria? From Yemen?

Do you really think any of this is normal?

No. Perhaps you should go back and read my first post on this thread.

I just don’t consider it genocide.

We in Europe were gifted peace by our ancestors, but we have forgotten the horrors of war. Most of us are seeing the horrors of war for the first time, we are seeing the true cost of war for the first time, and we are having a very normal human reaction to it.

That doesn’t make it genocide.

I can keep up with my own posts perfectly fine, thanks.

As I already said, I had no idea what you were talking about.

But now that you’ve clarified, no, I don’t want to explain anything because it has been done to death on this board and I have neither the time nor inclination to waste my time playing a game of table tennis with dates and statistics.

I have said all that I wanted to.

I’ll leave you all to it.