"The case for genocide in Gaza"

[Auvergne63]

May this comes back to haunt him.
Influential Israeli national security leader makes the case for genocide in Gaza | Jewish Voice for Labour

Hold on a minute, you said “it's the war crimes that make it genocide”.

You in no way said or implied that both things were happening at once. You specially said it was war crimes that made this a genocide.

I replied factually that war crimes are not genocide.

Maybe you thought that was going to be a big “gotcha” moment?

But you've given an example where many people do consider criteria for genocide to be met.

@Vivi0

"I replied factually that war crimes are not genocide."

That's disingenuous.

You specifically stated the taking of hostages. Which is not in itself genocide.

This was then countered by the complete destruction of every civil amenity, the bombing of every hospital and the almost entire destruction of homes, schools, universities, every civic amenity, coupled with the denial of aid, food, water and medical supplies. Never mind the disproportionate death toll.

That is genocide.

To be honest, there were a few I could have used.

I also had Yemen in mind, and Ukraine.

I just want to clarify, are you referring to ISIS, Assad or both?

Also, I wouldn’t say “many people” at all. The ICC have never even issued an arrest warrant for him.

You could indeed pick from a range of options of conflicts where people have raised concerns about genocide. Sadly, it's not as uncommon as people would like to think.

There have been several different things happening in Syria and in the previous IS-held areas in both Syria and Iraq where actions taken could meet or have been found to meet criteria for genocide. Those concerns have been widely documented and publicised. ICC action was hampered by several obstacles, including the US, Russia, Syria not being a signatory/member, etc.

The man in the OP, however, is expressing specific views on Palestine. He appears to have not encountered much disapproval of his views from senior people in either the government or the military.

No idea what you're on about now. In most genocidal situations you'll have all sorts of atrocities. One doesn't negate another. The Hague will be busy with Israel.

You could indeed pick from a range of options of conflicts where people have raised concerns about genocide. Sadly, it's not as uncommon as people would like to think.

It seems to me that the criteria for genocide as outlined in the Geneva convention can be met in most wars.

Yet, genocide is something very specific - the Holocaust, Cambodia, Rwanda etc. It was never intended to describe the horrendous cost of war, especially of modern warfare, in densely populated and built up areas that couldn’t have been envisioned at the time of its creation.

And I am very wary of the concerted effort and campaign here to accuse Israel of genocide when:

(1) no such effort and campaign has been undertaken in similar recent and worse conflicts.

(2) Jewish people have always been the target of such campaigns to portray them as uniquely bad, sinister and evil, since the beginning of time.

(3) they themselves have been victims of a genocide that was carried on an industrial scale and for whom the sentiment has never went away.

I say this whilst acknowledging the suffering of the people of Gaza, their insurmountable loss and horrendous death toll.

ICC action was hampered by several obstacles, including the US, Russia, Syria not being a signatory/member, etc.

Russia and Israel are not signatory members, yet it did not stop the ICC issuing arrest warrants for Putin and Netanyahu.

If you can't see the genocide in Gaza you're being wilfully blind.

There is a case for genocide to be proved at the ICJ. There are currently 13 countries supporting South Africa's case. We all know it will be a long drawn out process.

(1) no such effort and campaign has been undertaken in similar recent and worse conflicts
(2) Jewish people have always been the target of such campaigns to portray them as uniquely bad, sinister and evil, since the beginning of time.
(3) they themselves have been victims of a genocide that was carried on an industrial scale and for whom the sentiment has never went away.

Frankly none of these points are relevant to whether there is a case of genocide by Israel or not. All they are is you giving reasons why you don't like the fact that a case has been brought against Israel.

One doesn’t negate the other, true.

But nor does it follow that one equals the other. Which is what you said. You said that war crimes make this a genocide.

I simply pointed out that war crimes certainly do not equal genocide.

I have no idea what you are so “dismayed” about?

The ICC can arguably be considered to have a role in cases against Putin and Netanyahu because Palestine is a member and Ukraine, while not a member per se, has demonstrated its acceptance of the ICC's jurisdiction. Arrest warrants have also been requested for Hamas leaders, in recognition of the serious charges against them too.

Efforts have been made in other conflicts to have allegations of war crimes and genocide investigated. These can take years to be investigated though, and media attention is not equal for multiple reasons. Take, for example, the case of the Uighur Muslims, against whom atrocities have been committed for years with no real interventions or recognition in global media. But when a government and military leaders call for the eradication of a population, then start eradicating them, the world should not stay silent, even if the government is an ally of major powers. Allies shouldn't let their allies go down paths of vengeance and darkness - that's how everyone loses their humanity.

Frankly none of these points are relevant to whether there is a case of genocide by Israel or not.

Where did I say they were relevant? Please, show me where I said that?

All they are is you giving reasons why you don't like the fact that a case has been brought against Israel.

All they are, are reasons I have given for why I am “very wary of the concerted effort and campaign here to accuse Israel of genocide”.

I mean, I have quoted myself from the same comment you quoted from.

I never said anything about relevance or whether I liked or disliked a case being brought against Israel.

I have said I am wary of the intent. I said that very clearly.

I have said I am wary of the intent. I said that very clearly.

This is my point the intent is irrelevant, if there's a case for genocide there's a case for genocide. If it's proven, the reasons (which you seem clear on) for bringing the case don't matter, the crime will have been proven.

And to add to that the 13 countries that are supporting South Africa's case are doing so after their own legal analysis into what has happened and believe there is a case to answer. You make it sound like some conspiracy against Israel which is insulting and not true. No country would enter into this lightly

The intent is not irrelevant. If similar crimes were committed by two men of different skin colour, yet only one were prosecuted and found guilty, we would acknowledge the racism behind that, whilst still holding the individual responsible for their crime. This, in fact, is something that we already do. It’s certainly not irrelevant.

There absolutely have been war crimes committed here, by both the IDF and Hamas, but there is no genocide. I have already said why I believe that to be the case.

The reasons I am wary of a case being brought against Israel have nothing to do with the reasons I have given for my opinion that there is no genocide taking place.

I am having two separate discussions simultaneously Dulra. Please do not conflate them.

To be completely honest with you, that doesn’t make me any less wary.

Antisemitism, at both an individual and state level, is not a conspiracy, Dulra.

@Vivi0 what other country has starved a captive population having previously bombed civilian infrastructure including shelter, healthcare, education, water, food and aid? Destroying a country in this way is genocide. Bombing civilian homes/camps on this scale is genocide. Repeated forced displacement and then bombing those who have fled to where you told them was a safe place is probably genocide.

Even if other countries are doing this, it doesn't stop it being genocide.

I disagree with your reasoning as to why this isn’t genocide.

For me the fig leaf train of thought is:

1. we are rooting out HAMAS
2. HAMAS are hiding in the population
3. it’s sad but it is war.

To me the actual train of thought is

1. HAMAS and Palestinian are essentially synonymous. Two sides of the same coin.
2. Dehumanizing language about HAMAS intended to cement the conflation.
3. HAMAS/Palestinian who cares?
4. Because ALL of them are HAMAS<>Palestinian then rooting out (I.e. killing) all of them is permissible because, but “we were only doing it to HAMAS terrorists”. On the other hand when it comes to taking responsibility, there are endless denials that any conflation has taken place and “anti-semitic” launched at anyone who isn’t prepared to give 100% support.

It is perfectly clear from the rhetoric what the intention is. And the kindest that can be said is that you are naive to the intent of the Israeli government.

So why aren't all the people on here accusing Israel of genocide doing the same on threads about these other countries?

If there were boards on MN about the genocide of the Uighurs, for example, I think some people would post but there would be little wider concern. Most people just ignore what happens in 'non-Western' disasters. They get bits of media coverage, but not enough. So, people who care have often moved away from efforts to engage disinterested people.

Why are deflecting? If there's a case to answer there's a case to answer. If there's not there's not. The fact that other cases of genocide should also be brought to the ICJ is not a defence. Link below demonstrates how many cases are being investigated it is not an insignificant number. I agree they are not getting the same amount of publicity but they're rumbling along in the background all the same.

https://www.eurojust.europa.eu/news/genocide-and-war-crimes-cases-rise-13-eu-3-years

Why should they? You've spent hours of your life online defending Israel lately, why just Israel? Do you think Israeli hostages are worth more than the Chibok girls for instance. There are still around 100 missing, why aren't you posting about bringing them home relentlessly? Why is it OK for you to post endlessly about Israel but not for others? Whya re you holding others to standards you yourself aren't living up to?

What are your thoughts on the retired major that this this thread is about? Do you agree with his words? Do you think are they are genocidal? What are your thoughts on the finance minister who agreed with every word he said?

Suggesting the countries supporting the case at the ICJ are doing so because they are antisemitic is a pretty big accusation to make with little to no evidence to back up your claim.
I would question why you would suggest the only reason countries would be concerned about a potential genocide to Palestinians is because they are antisemitic as opposed to the more likely reason of not wanting to stand by while tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians are being killed?

to all those who say I am deflecting, what I stated remains true. Why so many Anti-israel threads on the CITME boards? Why is there nothing about other conflicts?