Over 210 massacred at Nuseirat refugee camp by IDF

[ConnieCounter]

https://www.thejournal.ie/israel-bombs-refugee-camp-200-dead-hamas-gaza-6402337-Jun2024/

The footage coming out of this this absolutely sickening. So many precious children killed. I've never seen anything like it. Poor innocent babies.

It's great that they managed to rescue 4 hostages (though it seems they killed others) but the human cost of that for Palestinians (and potentially other hostages) is absolutely obscene and not acceptable.

Agree 100 %

@Nautiluss If they hide hostages and personnel in areas the IDF said not to go, are they not more likely to be killed? They hide them in areas where the IDF says to go, one assumes, because they want the hostages and personnel alive. And, as it's quite obvious this would happen, why does the IDF not adopt a different strategy than one which is likely to kill many civilians and possibly hostages? Is it because this way they at least get to kill some Hamas personnel as well?

I'm all ears on hearing your proposal to "adopt a different strategy" in the rescue of hostages(!)

You can only work on the basis of the circumstances before you and what your HUMINT sources have told you.....🧐

A ceasefire would be the best way.

Sorry, can't be bothered with you @DownNative You never address the point of what I say, and I've never seen you express any moral opinion. You write as if it's all a big joke, in my opinion. It's certainly not funny to me.

Hamas wrongs does not mean Israel's actions are right or appropriate. Many are failing to see the difference between the two at this stage.

@ConnieCounter Yes, it's been suggested by hostage families and people in Israel. If the IDF know hostages and Hamas personnel will be in the 'safe' areas, it makes more sense than attacking those areas, I would think.

Yes - call it what it is.

Hamas' human shields tactic = human sacrifice tactic.

"I have said this before, and I say it time again: The blood of the women, children, and elderly… I am not saying that this blood is calling for your [help]. We are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit, so it awakens within us resolve, so it awakens within us the spirit of challenge, and [pushes us] to move forward."

• Hamas leader Isamil Haniyeh October 26, 2023

That's the ideology of a destructive terrorist death cult like Hamas the Israel Defence Force is up against.

They want to use Gazan bloodshed to galvanise support, morale and so on for Hamas against the Israel Defence Force.

In short, Hamas don't care about civilian lives which is why they use them as shields which becomes part of their international propaganda cognitive warfare against Israel.

Areas cannot be rendered immune from military operations by the presence of protected people, i.e, civilians.

Hamas knows that, but they're relying on people around the world not to know this,to fall for their own propaganda and, knowingly or unknowingly, then assist Hamas' own war aims.

They're pretty good at cognitive warfare, but we now have indications of HUMINT sources inside Gaza and Hamas.

Hamas are now fighting for survival, so expect further desperate murders of hostages and civilians alike.

Destructive terrorist death cult.

Completely agree, lacking in basic social and emotional skills and tone deaf use of inappropriate gifs and emojis

As expected!

When you were challenged on your own alternative proposals, you refuse to elaborate.

Fine.

Everyone can now see that.

But, no, I don't treat warfare as a joke. However, I do understand terrorist groups in a way you clearly do not and understand IHL.

IHL regulates conflict.

Subjective opinions and morals does not.

I'm sure you can understand why I prefer the practical to the impractical. 🤷‍♂️

I think this is unfair @stormy4319trevor as I have always @DownNative to be open to debate and gently persuasive in her/his points.

I don't understand how Hamas using human shields makes the civilians fair game for Israel to kill via bombing. Can someone who argues this point explain that to me?

Also let's not pretend that the IDF are above using human shields.

https://x.com/sharifkouddous/status/1799760531181760610?t=WOdHUFesTrNNYq9d4l2HUQ&s=19

"The death toll from Israel’s attack on the Nuseirat refugee camp yesterday now stands at 274 killed and 698 wounded, according to the ministry of health. “A number of victims are still under rubble and on the roads, and ambulance and civil defense crews cannot reach them."

Some people use a strategy of cold detachment, while also adding in some self-aggrandisement and veiled hate speech references. This may be a carefully considered approach to try to generate maximum hurt among readers who would not be likely to be convinced by their interpretations, while trying to sway readers who might be less aware of the contradictory arguments by trying to be "an expert". 'Feelings', 'compassion', etc don't factor into it. Some people enjoy that kind of thing.

Indeed, and I much prefer not to make personal attacks or receive them. 👍

That's also against MN rules.

@Dulra Well, one never knows what issues people may have. But I feel some exchanges are just pointless now!
@keenforhelp life is short. I've only so much time for inadequate communications. I expect @DownNative can find lots of other people to discuss their opinions with.

Agree @ConnieCounter

I was thinking about this earlier, and trying to apply simple thinking.

So if that was me, and hindsight was an option, would people say yes save her please, but kill 200 others to do so. Is my life really worth that many?

Then say it was, say people said yes lmjh you are worth that, how does one reconcile that in their own mind. Well here I am, but look how I got here. Then does that become a wasted life, full of guilt and sorrow.

A ceasefire would be the best way, enabling all hostages to return and no more life to be lost in order to save them.

It's just awful. There seems to be a justification that people are saying don't hold hostages.
Why are you so happy for for 50 innocent people to pay for the life of another.

That would be your opinion, but not my own view.

Certainly, I don't intend to hurt anyone emotionally or psychologically. But I DO stick to the topic without trying to personalise the debate in order to address the very issue itself.

In short, I don't follow the herd. I also don't aim to change your own mind or perspective, but I do challenge them with various things. That's adult debate.

You, on the other hand, frequently attempt to personalise the debate as you're attempting here in addition to trying to directly appeal to people's emotions in order to sway them to your argument.

So....focus on the actual debate at hand?

I just read that article, thank you for posting it.

It says in one part in regard to the number of deaths,
Mr Hagari estimated less than a hundred, while the Hamas media office said more than 200 had been killed.

Mr Hagari’s men hardly stayed around to look for bodies under rubble, or even on the streets, let alone reassemble scattered body parts, so his claim to know how many were killed is ridiculous.

It's not really a debate @DownNative

This is a thread about over 270 people who were massacred yesterday. Right thinking people won't see anything to debate here.

Can you explain why you think the use of human shields by Hamas justifies the killing of those civilians?

. But I DO stick to the topic without trying to personalise the debate in order to address the very issue itself.

Maybe this is part of the disconnect many come on here to express emotions at the situation not to debate. This is Mumsnet

Yes, it is sickening. You have put that well about the Trojan Horses.

Also think how the IDF excuse themselves targeting ambulances because ‘Hamas’ are using them. Hypocrites.

Now people may mistrust even genuine aid trucks.