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Conflict in the Middle East

Over 210 massacred at Nuseirat refugee camp by IDF

346 replies

ConnieCounter · 08/06/2024 18:53

https://www.thejournal.ie/israel-bombs-refugee-camp-200-dead-hamas-gaza-6402337-Jun2024/

The footage coming out of this this absolutely sickening. So many precious children killed. I've never seen anything like it. Poor innocent babies.

It's great that they managed to rescue 4 hostages (though it seems they killed others) but the human cost of that for Palestinians (and potentially other hostages) is absolutely obscene and not acceptable.

'This is what a massacre looks like': Israeli bombardment kills more than 200 in central Gaza

The Al-Aqsa Hospital has been overwhelmed by the dead and wounded arriving following the bombing.

https://www.thejournal.ie/israel-bombs-refugee-camp-200-dead-hamas-gaza-6402337-Jun2024

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BibiSuzanne · 12/06/2024 20:35

Actually that ironic sentence is still there.

anotherlevel · 12/06/2024 20:38

@keenforhelp
"How can you possibly justify this kind of horrific and inhuman conduct to innocent civilians?"

I think you'll be perfect at answering your own question here as you appear to do the same about the sufferings of the Palestinians.

Scirocco · 12/06/2024 20:38

"How can you possibly justify this kind of horrific and inhuman conduct to innocent civilians?"

A very relevant question to ask in this thread. But somehow, some people do try to justify it, while more innocent families are torn apart every day.

Livelovelaugh028384 · 12/06/2024 20:56

keenforhelp · 12/06/2024 20:12

@Livelovelaugh028384 You need to be extremely careful when saying things like that above as there is a definite implication that you are blaming Israel for the terrorist atrocity on October 7TH.

How can you possibly justify this kind of horrific and inhuman conduct to innocent civilians?

Edited

How can you possibly justify the control Israel has over Palestine? How can you justify that they control their water and electricity? How can you justify the 100s and 100s of innocent people they have raped and tortured? How can you justify the video we all saw of the young baby who's head was gone, he was still in a fricking nappy.

anotherlevel · 12/06/2024 21:01

@keenforhelp Is it because you think Israeli lives matter and mean more?

MrsJackThornton · 12/06/2024 21:01

How can you possibly justify this kind of horrific and inhuman conduct to innocent civilians?

Well yes, that is the whole point of the thread isnt it. How can anyone justify this kind of horrific and inhuman conduct to innocent civilians like the hundreds killed at Nuseirat refugee camp by the IDF?

PeasfullPerson · 12/06/2024 21:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

anotherlevel · 12/06/2024 21:29

They'll probably say we're wrong in our assumptions but for me the silence says it all.

anotherlevel · 13/06/2024 15:40

@ScrollingLeaves

"That family has experienced vicious brutality at the hands of these Israeli/US(?) soldiers. What possible reason did they have to shoot off that boy’s arm, and kill a 12 year old? They behaved like savage terrorists.

Was this in Nuseirat? If so, how does this fit with the idea that the I.D.F. felt justified in carrying out a massive bombing attack in order to provide cover for the special forces and the rescued hostages from Hamas soldiers’ fire? What does shooting children in their home have to do with rescue?

Is it possible the soldiers who came into this family’s house really were American, rather than Israeli-American members of the I.D.F.? Maybe they just had American accents?"

Interesting you should say this because I came across a video yesterday (which I can't for the life of me find now) where a woman is explaining the letters shown on a soldiers helmet RG I think it was (they were aiding a hostage) is a US helmet. Israeli helmets have a different symbol/letter on them. She also showed footage of the US aid pier being used for the hostages.

PeasfullPerson · 13/06/2024 16:44

Possible reasons that people justify civilian suffering during war.

In group bias - when people are scared they have a tendency to club together with people similar to themselves and see out groups in a less favourable light. They are more likely to attribute negative traits to out groups and positive traits to their own group. This makes it easier to justify actions against the whole group. Think IDF soldiers chanting about how there are no innocents in Gaza.

Framing - war can be framed by leaders as an us and them existential fight, and under the premise that the way it is waged is the only way. People then believe that this is the only way to achieve their own safety and view deaths as an unfortunate consequence of what must be done. Again, people are more susceptible to seeing things this way when they are scared.

Dissonance and Dehumanisation - even though people may have been convinced that this is the only way forward and that people will unfortunately die, this is often uncomfortable. In order to make this more palatable people have a tendency to speak about what is happening in terms which don’t recognise the full extent of human suffering. Think about the different names we give to ‘meat’, the way it is packaged and sold and how many people say they could never hurt an animal themselves, but will happily tuck into one that is presented as something else after the deed has been done. People aren’t killed, they are neutralised or termed collateral.

Leaders will take advantage of these ideas, they will attempt to control the narrative in a way which encourages people to view their actions as necessary and legitimate. They will seek to shut down narratives that don’t fit their own.

PeasfullPerson · 13/06/2024 16:45

I hope that comment is more acceptable and that is clear I am not directing this at any particular individual, but that these are well known concepts!

ScrollingLeaves · 13/06/2024 17:11

anotherlevel · 13/06/2024 15:40

@ScrollingLeaves

"That family has experienced vicious brutality at the hands of these Israeli/US(?) soldiers. What possible reason did they have to shoot off that boy’s arm, and kill a 12 year old? They behaved like savage terrorists.

Was this in Nuseirat? If so, how does this fit with the idea that the I.D.F. felt justified in carrying out a massive bombing attack in order to provide cover for the special forces and the rescued hostages from Hamas soldiers’ fire? What does shooting children in their home have to do with rescue?

Is it possible the soldiers who came into this family’s house really were American, rather than Israeli-American members of the I.D.F.? Maybe they just had American accents?"

Interesting you should say this because I came across a video yesterday (which I can't for the life of me find now) where a woman is explaining the letters shown on a soldiers helmet RG I think it was (they were aiding a hostage) is a US helmet. Israeli helmets have a different symbol/letter on them. She also showed footage of the US aid pier being used for the hostages.

Just after this I saw the report @finallyloggedin posted on one of the threads, about this US army major resigning over Palestine.

The question about whether the YSA provided just intelligence or also ‘boots on the ground’ came up during an interview with the officer in question, Harrison Mann, in which the interviewer cites Jake Sullivan saying it is just intelligence.

It is not clear to me whether or not Harrison skirts the question about whether what Jake Sullivan [Jacob Jeremiah Sullivan is an American attorney who is serving as the United States National Security Advisor] said about the US only offering intelligence is true.

Or maybe Harrison Mann did not understand she was wanting firm confirmation of that.

Or, maybe he just wanted to explain how, for him, ‘just intelligence’ can lead to unexpected harms/hundreds of deaths and woundings.

Or, he may have not known, because of his earlier resignation, if what happened at Nuseirat did involve US boots on the ground, in spite of what Jake Sullivan said.

It could all be top secret and he and Jake Sullivan have signed to keep official secrets.

U.S. Jewish Army Intel Officer Quits over Gaza, Says “Impossible” Not to See Echoes of Holocaust | Democracy Now!

https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/11/harrison_mann_resignation_gaza_war

In this part of the interview with the army officer in question, Harrison Mann, it comes up whether the US gave just intelligence for the Israeli Nuseirat raid.
(My bolding.)

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you about more recent events, like this weekend, and as your role as a DIA officer, if you could explain what’s really going on here, talking about the role of U.S. intelligence support in Israel’s war on Gaza. This is national security adviser Jake Sullivan speaking on CNN from Paris.

JAKE SULLIVAN: The United States has been providing support to Israel for several months in its efforts to help identify the locations of hostages in Gaza and to support efforts to try to secure their rescue or recovery. I’m not going to get into the specific operational or intelligence-related matters associated with that, because we need to protect those. I can only just say that we have generally provided support to the IDF so that we can try to get all of the hostages home, including the American hostages who are still being held.

DANA BASH: So, I understand that intelligence, U.S. intelligence, assisted. But will you say anything about U.S. personnel, U.S. weapons?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, the one thing I can say is that there were no U.S. forces, no U.S. boots on the ground involved in this operation. We did not participate militarily in this operation.

AMY GOODMAN: So, no boots on the ground, Jake Sullivan says to Dana Bash of CNN. He’s talking about this weekend , when more than 270 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli military operation that freed four Israeli hostages in Nuseirat, in Gaza. Israeli intelligence officials told The New York Times— this is in an article today — that U.S. military officials in Israel provided some of the intelligence about the hostages rescued on Saturday. According to the Times, the Pentagon and the CIA have been providing information collected from drone flights over Gaza, communications intercepts and other sources about the potential location of hostages. While Israel has its own intelligence, the United States and Britain have been able to provide intelligence from the air and cyberspace that Israel cannot collect on its own, The New York Times reports. So, Harrison Mann, talk more about this and what kind of support was, it looks like, provided this weekend. And then go more generally into, well, President Biden more recently said he’s approving a billion dollars more of just outright weapons to Israel.

HARRISON MANN: Yeah, I think the operation this weekend is a kind of unusually public example of the value of intelligence support that the U.S. provides to Israel, which is — you know, we’ve had a long-standing and very strong relationship, and usually it’s not discussed. But I think this weekend we saw how intel support, even if it’s for a goal that I think is nominally, you know, quite — something that’s difficult to dispute, which is rescuing hostages, can nonetheless contribute to operations that kill what looks like a very large number of civilians. And I think it’s also indicative of the value of the intel support that we give Israel. And I just highlight that because that’s the area that I worked in or adjacent to, and it’s another form of valuable support that we give Israel that helps them prosecute this war. And it’s another less discussed form of leverage that we also have over the Israeli government.

Jewish Intel Officer Who Quit Over Gaza: Impossible Not to See Holocaust Parallels in War on Gaza

We speak with U.S. Army Major Harrison Mann, the first military and intelligence officer to publicly resign over the Biden administration’s support for Israel’s war on Gaza. Mann left his role at the Defense Intelligence Agency after a 13-year career,...

https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/11/harrison_mann_resignation_gaza_war

WildSage · 14/06/2024 09:14

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

PeasfullPerson · 14/06/2024 10:05

Post deleted above disputing numbers.

If Israel govt believe that the numbers are being exaggerated or misrepresented they have the power to fix this by allowing independent investigations. They chose not to allow this. Why is that?

anotherlevel · 14/06/2024 10:06

I was just coming on to respond to the last post but it's thankfully been deleted!

MrsJackThornton · 14/06/2024 10:27

I reported the post and MN responded that they had banned the user

Scirocco · 14/06/2024 10:28

It's quite sad that I wasn't even surprised to see such lack of empathy in relation to the suffering of children and the grief of families, as has been shown in response to this tragedy.

Scirocco · 14/06/2024 10:31

MrsJackThornton · 14/06/2024 10:27

I reported the post and MN responded that they had banned the user

Thank you.

anotherlevel · 14/06/2024 10:34

MrsJackThornton · 14/06/2024 10:27

I reported the post and MN responded that they had banned the user

Thank you.

Dulra · 14/06/2024 12:21

PeasfullPerson · 14/06/2024 10:05

Post deleted above disputing numbers.

If Israel govt believe that the numbers are being exaggerated or misrepresented they have the power to fix this by allowing independent investigations. They chose not to allow this. Why is that?

They chose not to allow this. Why is that?

This 💯

There is so much back and forth on these threads about what is really happening and who to believe, yet isreal will not allow independent journalists or investigators in so most of what we know is either from Israel or Hamas and neither can be believed. Rather than continually discrediting and questioning the information coming out of Gaza just let people in to verify it. What are they so afraid of?

anotherlevel · 14/06/2024 13:59

@Dulra The truth is what they're afraid of.

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