Israel rescues four hostages alive from Gaza who were captured by Hamas at Nova music festival on October 7 - including girl seen kidnapped on back of motorbike

[keenforhelp]

Well done Israel - fantastic, wonderful news
xxx

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13508615/Israel-rescues-four-hostages-alive-Gaza-Noa-Argamani-motorbike.html

And again...

I am happy to take the thread back to the experience of the hostages and the hell they and their families have been through.

However, I will struggle to do this if other posters use their rescue as an argument for continuing the war and absolving the Israeli government of all responsibility for civilian casualties. I believe that the lives of all human beings matter, that the Israeli government and Hamas are both responsible, and I want a ceasefire so that people in Palestine and Israel can live in peace and safety.

If people are at the point of arguing that Save The Children, Medicines Sans Frontiers, and the ICRC are all in cahoots with Hamas, then reality has left the building.

Shame on who?

You make a very good point.

Hamas apparently used RPG’s and grenades. Does anyone believe that some of the civilians weren’t killed by Hamas?

It’s a horrible horrible time and no doubt the deaths of Palestinians, not just in this operation but the wider one is an utter tragedy. But I don’t understand how anyone cannot expect Hamas to be considered to the main perpetrators here.

If you attack someone, rape and murder they will of course retaliate. No Palestinian lives are not less important than Israeli lives on a moral scale but countries tend to prioritise their own, this is true of whatever conflict we are talking about. Ofcourse the Israelis are going to prioritise their own citizens. These people were being held in private homes, not tunnels or bunkers or military facilities. hamas put them squarely where civilians are on purpose. Israel when they find their citizens have to decide whether to go get them or wait for them to be returned in a body bag. Which one would you choose?

I have no time for Netanyahu, he’s an extremist is my view but the idea that this is all Israels fault is extraordinary. There was a ceasefire, Hamas broke it on the 7th October.

All of this can be avoided by not attacking, murdering and then taking hostages. Palestinian leadership has got Palestinians precisely nowhere over the decades. So many missed opportunities for a two state solution it’s fucking tragic.

No. Hamas are to blame for those deaths

Hamas apparently used RPG’s and grenades. Does anyone believe that some of the civilians weren’t killed by Hamas?

It’s a horrible horrible time and no doubt the deaths of Palestinians, not just in this operation but the wider one is an utter tragedy. But I don’t understand how anyone cannot expect Hamas to be considered to the main perpetrators here.

If you attack someone, rape and murder they will of course retaliate. No Palestinian lives are not less important than Israeli lives on a moral scale but countries tend to prioritise their own, this is true of whatever conflict we are talking about. Ofcourse the Israelis are going to prioritise their own citizens. These people were being held in private homes, not tunnels or bunkers or military facilities. hamas put them squarely where civilians are on purpose. Israel when they find their citizens have to decide whether to go get them or wait for them to be returned in a body bag. Which one would you choose?

I have no time for Netanyahu, he’s an extremist is my view but the idea that this is all Israels fault is extraordinary. There was a ceasefire, Hamas broke it on the 7th October.

All of this can be avoided by not attacking, murdering and then taking hostages. Palestinian leadership has got Palestinians precisely nowhere over the decades. So many missed opportunities for a two state solution it’s fucking tragic.

This.

@Chickenuggetsticks Well said. I'd also guess that a good proportion of those killed, were killed in engagement with the IDF.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

No, you believe Israel has breached laws of war which is a different thing. There's a reason why many of the organisations you quote have a caveat - the word "may".

Seen some wonderful videos today of people being able to take down Noa‘s bring them home poster.

Time will tell. I tend to listen to experts on the rules of war, you know eminent lawyers, academics and so on. Unless you are one of them, my opinion is as valid as yours.

To put the implied accusations of either complicity or incompetence in context, Nuseirat was a fairly sizeable town, with a population of well over 30,000 before the conflict began (over 30,000 at the 2017 census). When people think of 'refugee camp', they tend to think of relatively small tent-based encampments, but Nuseirat and similar places were large-ish urban towns, really. Even in peaceful conditions where people would be relatively static, it would be hard to know exactly who was where and when. In a conflict where people are being displaced on a regular basis, it would be pretty much impossible.

MSF will primarily have been operating within hospitals. Unicef and others will have been trying to get aid to people. These organisations are unlikely to have had the remit or resources to conduct a search of an area that could house over 30,000 people, in the middle of a war. Blaming overwhelmed humanitarian agencies for not being confirmed as knowing the whereabouts of a small number of people who were actively being made difficult to find is not based in reality, but in intolerance and hatred.

That's lovely. Hopefully they will be able to get the remaining hostages home, then all posters can come down. Then the bodies of the dead hostages too.

@Bowib that is wonderful. May that happen to many, many more.

So much joy tinged with sadness. Another hostage's father passed away hours before his rescue, not knowing

AJ "journalist" one of the hostage takers. No surprise there then

Don't you include Francesca Albanese? The one who has not shown her own qualifications on law when questioned by another Italian expert? 🤷‍♂️

I think you'll find I've used a range of experts on warfare and international law in addition to the IHL texts themselves alongside my existing knowledge of terrorist organisations and operations against them. 👍

Lets be clear. This is fantastic news regarding the 4 hostages being released by the IDF, special forces one of them a young woman captured for almost 10 months. Sadly, one specials forces soldiers life was taken by the terroists

To be absolutely clear. Each and every death of Israeli soldiers, Israeil civilians in children sbatched from their beds and along with the death of the ordinary, innocinet people of Gaza is down to Hamas and those that control them. No ifs, no buts but a fact of life

Release the hostages, Hamas leaders and right-hand men surrender along with the leaders living it up in other countries, you have a permanent peace.

Israel left Gaza over 15 years ago and this is what Hamas has done to the people of Gaza and them alone are responsible!!

@stomachamelon I wish I could say I was surprised at that. Yet so many seem to take Al Jazeera's reporting as absolute gospel.

Indeed!

Qatar funds Al Jazeera which social media platforms will flag up for you, e.g. YouTube of which I posted a screenshot of months ago and still have.

Several States have had issues with Al Jazeera including Middle East and Western ones.

Certainly something to keep in mind at all times whenever you see "Al Jazeera".

Wow she was held hostage in a Al Jazerra journalist home! No real surprise.

So where is this hostage holding journalist now?

This is just a version of the story, though. The version that supports Israel unequivocally. That can look at 35,000 deaths of Palestinians, most of whom have absolutely nothing to do with Hamas, caused directly rockets sent by Israel, and say "only Hamas is responsible."

I am sure you believe it with every bone of your body, and others do too. Never mind that the international courts feel differently (thus seeking warrants for Israeli leaders along with Hamas leaders).

I suppose psychologically saying it, despite how illogical it is, helps absolve you from consideration of supporting the army besieging a civilian population and killing them in enormous numbers. After all, their direct and deliberate actions aren't by them- they're by Hamas.

I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise. But I do want to say, it is only a contested version of the truth.