Israel rescues four hostages alive from Gaza who were captured by Hamas at Nova music festival on October 7 - including girl seen kidnapped on back of motorbike

[keenforhelp]

Well done Israel - fantastic, wonderful news
xxx

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13508615/Israel-rescues-four-hostages-alive-Gaza-Noa-Argamani-motorbike.html

Actually, judgements can be made of civilians. Especially since we know there is very significant support for Hamas. It isn't logical to think all or most of them are kept under control by the gun.

Some perhaps. But not to the high level in Gaza.

There isn't anything to verify the image with per se - certainly not on searches. However, I don't claim to be infallible or anything like that.

And, as I usually remind people, we all have a bias. That doesn't necessarily mean we're wrong on x, you or z.

The word of caution applies to posters such as yourself and others, especially the really, really prolific ones who respond to absolutely everything including with social media accounts. That reminds of the Raisi helicopter crash - loads of fake accounts plus influencer accounts turned a joke into a serious accusation scarily quickly.

Word of caution, absolutely! 👍

@LordPercyPercy major news organisations such as BBC and well respected newspapers are reporting over 35k. There are daily images of many many dead children on Instagram.

The EU are saying around 100 Gazans were killed as a result of the operation.

To me it seems to show such a skewed sense of compassion, to have a thread celebrating an outcome that cost more innocent lives than it saved.

Let me rephrase that, they knew it was highly likely to result in a large number of civilians casualties but they went ahead anyway because they needed the political win.

More importantly, yes there is no way to go back in time, but there is an opportunity to agree a ceasefire.

We might disagree on how far back in time someone would need to go to stop the events that led to this.

Your cold hard reality is actually framed by your perception of October 7th being a single event which occurred with no factors leading up to it, and of which no factors after could have impacted the response. So not really a cold hard reality at all.

Sorry to hear that. I'm sure MN will deal with them appropriately.

No, the BBC et al actually report any figures as "according to the Gaza Health Ministry/according to the Hamas run Gazan Health Ministry" and variants.

This means Hamas - see attachment showing their structure.

Also, news organisations such as the BBC et al can and do get important information wrong during conflicts. They're not infallible. Indeed, just last week the Washington Post quietly deleted an article with incorrect information instead of publicly retracting it.

That's the kind of thing that happens.

Figures have also been revised over time. You cannot realistically acquire highly accurate numbers during an active conflict. These usually come afterwards and even then can be in dispute.

Civilians usually are killed at high rates during wars.

But this thread is about the hostages, Operation Summer Seeds and the Special Forces soldier who died.

There's nothing such thing as happiness in this situation, everything is tinged with blood of the innocent on both sides.

Right, so you now want to shift the goalposts to a very general "they knew it was highly likely to result in a large number of civilians casualties"?

There is no way around that in an active war, especially when you have intelligence via HUMINT that enables you to stage a perfectly legitimate rescue operation.

Stating the obvious which doesn't necessarily make it wrong to undertake!

"....they went ahead anyway because they needed the political win."

More likely they went ahead on the basis of sound HUMINT in order to rescue the hostages.

Doing so successfully sends a message that Hamas is also slowly being weakened on the inside. I've no doubt they'll be trying work out who the HUMINT source is inside their ranks. Suspicion within terrorist ranks is corrosive.

Often, terrorists will wipe out other terrorists during a hunt for HUMINTs.

"Your cold hard reality is actually framed by your perception of October 7th being a single event..."

Wrong. Not a perception of it as a single event, but a reality of it as the beginning of the 2023 Hamas-Israeli War....which it is. My view is based on the cold hard reality of what war and terrorism is.

You, on the other hand, appear to ignore Hamas' planning for 7th October 2023 which wasn't cooked up in a day, week or month.

@Pav123 you do realise that this was a direct personal attack on me by telling me that you hope I can sleep soundly - as it the conflict was my fault!

And where are you getting 40,000 from now? The BBC and Al Jazeerah from Hamas? These figures do NOT distinguish from combatants - ie the terrorists and civilians!

Oh, OK. There was me thinking wars are easy and no one gets hurt in them.

Go back to living in your bubble. All the charities and UN are telling lies apart from Israel

I've looked into the events surrounding today's hostage rescue a bit more, and it looks like it was very surgically planned based on intelligence but the IDF were engaged by the teoorists after rescuing the three men, and that's when the IDF soldier was killed, and the IDF also then fired from the air.

I can absolutely see now why there would be civilian casualties in a crowded area and each one is a tragedy but I don't understand why, as per the other thread title, it is being described as a massacre. The implication is that the IDF just attacked innocent unarmed people, rather than actually engaged in urban warfare.

I'd also guess that a fair number of the dead were Hamas fighters as I know that Hamas doesn't make that distinction when reporting casualties.

Amazing news! Very happy for all the hostages rescued, their families and especially Noa who will now be able to see her dying mother.

"This is a celebratory thread about a hostage rescue in almost impossible conditions and there still appears to be a post suggesting that the IDF would have been responsible for hostage deaths when HAMAS TOOK THEM AND REFUSED TO RETURN THEM."

This many times over.

Can you imagine the relief of the family when she was rescued? This is a good moment in a horrible war.

do the planners and operatives of this mission not deserve some praise given the huge challenges of the operation? It must have been incredibly challenging to engage Hamas ensuring the hostages were not shot.

however we must bear in mind many of the hostages released near severe psychological scars and will probably need a great deal of aid to process this sadly.

let's hope more hostages can be rescued and this acts to lower Hamas morale.

It wouldn't be the first time a charitable organisation or some other internationally recognised body has been wrong - deliberately accidentally, mixture of both, etc.

The Red Cross delegate "had not been able to discover any trace of installations for extermination of civilian prisoners" at Auschwitz dated 22nd November 1944.

We know that extermination of civilian prisoners was, indeed, taking place during that time frame.

It is possible that a charitable organisation or some other internationally recognised body has been wrong - deliberately accidentally, mixture of both, etc - in the currently active & ongoing Hamas-Israel War in Gaza in 2023 as well as 2024.

It easily happens in war.

That's why you have to keep the Appeal To Authority Fallacy in mind and you actually appealed to this in your post there without acknowledging they're NOT infallible!

Absolutely correct!

Additionally, hostage rescue missions MOSTLY end in failure, historically. So, the fact the various agencies pulled off this highly complex, dangerous mission without losing the four hostages is actually nothing short of a miracle!

Former British Army Colonel, Richard Kemp made that point.

Noa's rescue was the most straightforward part. It was the rescue of the three men which was where the serious problems really started.

Last night I saw a clip of one of the men being reunited with friends and family - Almog, I think.

IIRC, the three men would not have been released as part of hostage and prisoner exchange deals.

They went ahead anyway because they wanted to free hostages that SHOULDN'T be there. I'm glad these hostages are free. I'm sad that innocents died. I blame HAMAS for keeping hostages embedded with civilians. They knew there would be a chance of a rescue operation. Of course a rescue should happen if possible. They didn't care. Are people supposed to bow down to Hamas and let them keep hostages. Hamas were firing heavily at the rescuers DESPITE civilians being near because they don't care. You know that.

Allow people a single thread to rejoice that people who shouldn't have been kidnapped on 7th Oct are now free. There are hundreds of threads of similar comments of anti Israel sentiment but several posters still have to overrun this single one. Pathetic. I and many others leave hundreds of threads alone but some cannot tolerate ANY sympathy with hostages and their families happiness at getting kidnapped members back.

Exactly. Some people appear to want hostages to stay captive. Some would be happier if the mission failed so they could crow about it.

Indeed.

The implication is incorrect it was a rescue mission and if hamas didn't fire back the captives would be released. Its on hamas no matter how much people pretend it isn't and poor hamas are innocent.

Imagine what carnage would have been prevented if Hamas had returned the hostages earlier (or, better still, not engaged in that act of Terrorism on October 7).

This is Hamas' doing.

Sorry- because it suits Hamas to point to civilian casualties, you refuse to care about them?

About children, who did not choose where they were born, the terror and hunger and loss of home their past year has been, the horrific end of their lives in terror, explosions, being physically torn to pieces? That's what you describe as "a trump card played by Hamas"?

Who the hell cares what Hamas makes of it, isn't it just objectively awful, as humans?

I am glad that the hostages are freed. Taking hostages is an awful strategy. It is lovely that Noa's mum will know she is safe (though I am sure the impact will last a lifetime for all former hostages, sadly).

I am utterly heartbroken at the cost.

You, on the other hand, appear to ignore Hamas' planning for 7th October 2023 which wasn't cooked up in a day, week or month.
Indeed. Don't forget the fact that Netanyahu allowed millions to reach Hamas, which is well documented. Not everything is black and white.
I find it interesting that your quote the laws of war when the Israeli government have been in breach of the Geneva convention ( which they signed up to), repeatedly.

I disagree, there are many ways to minimise the risk to civilian casualties.

Would you agree that the timing of this is politically positive for Netanyahu and co? With pressure to achieve a ceasefire deal when he would rather prolong the war, and increasing division and pressure in Israel to bring the hostages home, and pressure to present a plan for the day after the ‘war’.

You provide lots of information to back up your reasoning which I very much appreciate, but you are making a lot of assumptions and drawing conclusions without the actual evidence to do so, which you are then trying to present as fact. It sounds good, but it doesn’t make it correct.

And yet no one saw anything....