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Conflict in the Middle East
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5
EasternStandard · 22/05/2024 09:47

gingergran · 22/05/2024 09:08

I simply don't understand in a civilised society why when a Jewish person says they are suffering from anti-Semitism that is being questioned.

Jewish people are saying that they feel unsafe and that they feel threatened. Why are we as a society questioning whether that is justified or not

There has been a massive increase in anti-semitic attacks in the past year. This needs to be addressed and whether you like to dislike Michael Gove as a politician is irrelevant

Thank you for this post. Just to counter mn at times

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 09:47

@Humdingerydoo I wasn't dismissing, ignoring or minimising anything. I was simply attempting to find out more about the protest. It isn't one I've been aware of.

But if me asking a question to find out more about it (actually the thought had crossed my mind that there might be some way I could have helped with the concerns expressed, such as finding out who people can contact about it and sharing that information here for people to use) is met with "ugh", then I'll leave you to it.

Auvergne63 · 22/05/2024 09:49

AdamRyan · 22/05/2024 09:37

Quite. To the extent that they won't even use the term Islamophobia now. They are total hypocrites.

I think it is worse than hypocrisy. They are deliberately being devising. The speeches of Patel and Braverman were reminiscent of the "rivers of blood".

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 09:50

noblegiraffe · 22/05/2024 09:46

You're one of the people who won't let people discuss antisemitism without demanding condemnation of Israel. We had a big discussion about it?

That was not my perspective of the discussions.

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 09:51

I would love one of the Jewish posters to explain to me how to criticise Netanyahu's government in such a way that some posters don't interpret that as anti-semitism. It seems impossible.

I am Jewish and don't think criticising the Israeli government is anti semetic.

I will give you a hypothetical example of what I feel tips the debate though. I'm not quoting anyone in particular...just an example I've made up.

I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza in terrible....not anti semetic imo.

I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is terrible... considering what they went through in the holocaust, you'd think they'd behave differently. Anti semetic.

Auvergne63 · 22/05/2024 09:53

And those people are wrong, you can’t hold every Israeli or Jewish person responsible for the actions of the Israeli government.
Absolutely. No one should also hold the Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hamas either but so many do.

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 09:53

Scirocco · 22/05/2024 09:47

@Humdingerydoo I wasn't dismissing, ignoring or minimising anything. I was simply attempting to find out more about the protest. It isn't one I've been aware of.

But if me asking a question to find out more about it (actually the thought had crossed my mind that there might be some way I could have helped with the concerns expressed, such as finding out who people can contact about it and sharing that information here for people to use) is met with "ugh", then I'll leave you to it.

I'm sorry you took that sigh of frustration personally. I suppose I can see why you did, but it really wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at the situation, the fact that I'm having to explain why protesting against this specific documentary isn't appropriate. I know I replied to your comment, but the rest of the post wasn't aimed at you specifically. I realise that's impossible to tell on here though so I get it. I shouldn't have ended it with 'ugh' but it really, really wasn't aimed at your post.

Basically, you asked a question, I answered it and then I addressed my concerns and feelings in general. I should have done that in a separate post though.

AdamRyan · 22/05/2024 09:54

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 09:46

Maybe start by not doing it on a thread about antisemitism?

The thread is about Michael Gove. It's in the title. This is a discussion board, people will have differing opinions about what Gove said and why.

Are you thinking that's not worth discussing?

Humdingerydoo · 22/05/2024 09:57

AdamRyan · 22/05/2024 09:54

The thread is about Michael Gove. It's in the title. This is a discussion board, people will have differing opinions about what Gove said and why.

Are you thinking that's not worth discussing?

It is about Michael Gove's comments about antisemitism. But obviously that conversation can't be had without also discussing Israel and Islamophobia, or without people dismissing the seriousness of anti-Semitism and also putting the blame for it at the feet of Jews.

To be clear - not saying you're doing that, but you can't deny other posters have.

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 09:58

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 09:51

I would love one of the Jewish posters to explain to me how to criticise Netanyahu's government in such a way that some posters don't interpret that as anti-semitism. It seems impossible.

I am Jewish and don't think criticising the Israeli government is anti semetic.

I will give you a hypothetical example of what I feel tips the debate though. I'm not quoting anyone in particular...just an example I've made up.

I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza in terrible....not anti semetic imo.

I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is terrible... considering what they went through in the holocaust, you'd think they'd behave differently. Anti semetic.

I would never have seen that as antisemitism because I am interested in exploring the impact of generational trauma and see it as a relevant event. I think it’s natural to feel surprise and sadness that this is the response that has been chosen, and in the context of Jewish history.

Having said that now I know this upsets people I am trying to avoid making comments like this that will enrage and cause offence.

AdamRyan · 22/05/2024 09:58

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 09:51

I would love one of the Jewish posters to explain to me how to criticise Netanyahu's government in such a way that some posters don't interpret that as anti-semitism. It seems impossible.

I am Jewish and don't think criticising the Israeli government is anti semetic.

I will give you a hypothetical example of what I feel tips the debate though. I'm not quoting anyone in particular...just an example I've made up.

I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza in terrible....not anti semetic imo.

I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is terrible... considering what they went through in the holocaust, you'd think they'd behave differently. Anti semetic.

Why is the latter anti-semitic? Is it because its a different expectation on the Israeli government?

IDK. I feel like if we got a far right fascist government lots of the world could say "considering what they went through in WW2, you'd think they'd behave differently".

As a (not quite) equivalent unrwlated to prejudice, I see a lot of posters having a higher expectation of the Labour government on women's rights. It is annoying and double standards, but not prejudice.

(Again. If I've misunderstood this is clumsiness not intentional, text is not easy to discuss in)

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 09:59

Michael Gove’s speech wasn’t solely about antisemitism, which is part of the problem.

AdamRyan · 22/05/2024 10:02

keenforhelp · 21/05/2024 12:08

Just Jewish people and those who are not anti-Semitic.

This is the 8th reply on the thread. Explicitly saying anyone who doesn't agree with Gove is anti semitic. Apropos of noone saying anything vaguely antisemitic.

It makes it impossible to discuss.

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 10:02

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 09:58

I would never have seen that as antisemitism because I am interested in exploring the impact of generational trauma and see it as a relevant event. I think it’s natural to feel surprise and sadness that this is the response that has been chosen, and in the context of Jewish history.

Having said that now I know this upsets people I am trying to avoid making comments like this that will enrage and cause offence.

Thank you for attempting to make that change. The holocaust is a source of much pain for many of us. My grandmother is a holocaust survivor. Her younger brother was murdered in Auschwitz when he was 13 years old. To have the holocaust referenced in terms of this conflict is something I find incredibly offensive to the memory of the victims.

noblegiraffe · 22/05/2024 10:04

Why is the latter anti-semitic? Is it because its a different expectation on the Israeli government?

No, it's because it's comparing the actions of the Israeli government to those of the Nazis.

Comparing Jews to Nazis is antisemitic because it is often deliberately done to Jews to be particularly hurtful because six million of them were murdered by the Nazis.

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 10:05

noblegiraffe · 22/05/2024 10:04

Why is the latter anti-semitic? Is it because its a different expectation on the Israeli government?

No, it's because it's comparing the actions of the Israeli government to those of the Nazis.

Comparing Jews to Nazis is antisemitic because it is often deliberately done to Jews to be particularly hurtful because six million of them were murdered by the Nazis.

Yes and if anyone wants to understand more I suggest googling the term "holocaust inversion".

noblegiraffe · 22/05/2024 10:05

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 09:50

That was not my perspective of the discussions.

Well now you know it's my perspective of the discussions perhaps you can reflect on that?

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 10:10

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 10:02

Thank you for attempting to make that change. The holocaust is a source of much pain for many of us. My grandmother is a holocaust survivor. Her younger brother was murdered in Auschwitz when he was 13 years old. To have the holocaust referenced in terms of this conflict is something I find incredibly offensive to the memory of the victims.

I’m sorry for what your family went through and I appreciate you sharing that. It helps me understand the anger and pain that is felt when people reference the holocaust, especially in light of people deliberately doing this to cause offence. As a non Jewish person it is something that has felt very distant and resigned to history books. I can see that the memory of what happened is very much alive.

Comedycook · 22/05/2024 10:16

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 10:10

I’m sorry for what your family went through and I appreciate you sharing that. It helps me understand the anger and pain that is felt when people reference the holocaust, especially in light of people deliberately doing this to cause offence. As a non Jewish person it is something that has felt very distant and resigned to history books. I can see that the memory of what happened is very much alive.

Thank you. I really do appreciate your post.

onegrumpyoldwoman · 22/05/2024 10:28

keenforhelp · 21/05/2024 11:32

So you don't agree with what he is saying because you think he's a weasel.

I think he is probably a member of Homo Sapiens.

😂😂

noblegiraffe · 22/05/2024 10:46

AdamRyan · 22/05/2024 09:44

I know you are very sensible on this noble so if you are offended by what I'm about to say that's me being clumsy, not intentional.

I find there is no way to discuss what the Israeli government are doing without a direct or implied accusation of anti-semitism. It is there on this thread where there are multiple posters implying those of use that don't support Gove are taking that position because we are anti-semitic, rather than because of our issues with Gove/attacks on British democracy.

I would love one of the Jewish posters to explain to me how to criticise Netanyahu's government in such a way that some posters don't interpret that as anti-semitism. It seems impossible.

I'm not Jewish but I do try to help out on the antisemitism discussions because I feel like they shouldn't be expected to do all the work countering it. (Incidentally I don't try to speak for Jewish people and I hope that any errors I make don't piss them off and are taken in the generally supportive spirit in which they are intended).

There's an issue. The number of times I have talked about antisemitism on here and had the response 'oh, so you think I'm antisemitic because I don't support Israel?' is incredibly high. It seems to be a reflex action on the part of some. The assumption that any discussion of antisemitic behaviour is to act as a shield for the abhorrent actions of the Israeli government is prevalent.

There's also ignorance about antisemitism. How can we be 7 months in and people who have been discussing this for 7 months still not know that comparing Jews to Nazis is antisemitic? Or that 'Zionist' doesn't mean 'supports Netanyahu'? Or that lots of people don't want Israel to exist as a country and therefore chants like 'From the river to the sea' are are problem because there are plenty of people who do mean it to say 'From the river to the sea no Israel'. And that this is a problem related to antisemitism because a lot of people who don't want Israel to exist as a country don't want Israel to exist as a country specifically because it's a Jewish state?

It's like people have hopped into the middle of an incredibly complex situation in the Middle East, picked one side as the baddies and one as the goodies, gone all-out for the goodies and when people try to say 'it's a bit more complicated than that' reply with 'oh so I'm antisemitic because I don't support Israel?'

However, there are also people who do come on and say stuff like 'if you don't support Israel you're antisemitic' so that is really fucking annoying. It's not generally names I recognise as regular posters tbf. I do sometimes wonder about bots doing it to stoke division as I have also seen what I would consider bot-like behaviour on the other side, new names coming on with ridiculously antisemitic nonsense. But, there are also what appear to be genuine posters with posting history who say these things.

It's a mess. Discussions around it are a mess. I think it's entirely possible to have discussions about the actions of the Israeli government without being antisemitic. It might not be possible to have discussions about the actions of the Israeli government without being accused of antisemitism, because of aforementioned bellends. But if a regular, generally sensible poster says 'that's antisemitic', it's probably worth following up rather than taking the 'this poster is being a bellend' approach (see e.g. the nazi discussion) because it's possible, like the nazi thing, that there is an issue that you were unaware of. Antisemitism doesn't manifest like other types of racism.

And if you're thinking of wading into a discussion about antisemitism with a 'yeah but what about Gaza?'.....don't.

PeasfullPerson · 22/05/2024 10:55

noblegiraffe · 22/05/2024 10:05

Well now you know it's my perspective of the discussions perhaps you can reflect on that?

I will reflect on your perspective and I hope you will reflect on mine.

ChickyBricky · 22/05/2024 10:57

However, there are also people who docome on and say stuff like 'if you don't support Israel you're antisemitic' so that is really fucking annoying.

I have a horrible feeling I have done this, in at least one of my previous incarnations. After years on MN, I have deleted accounts a few times over the past few months, partly when I've realised I've been a wanker and partly because I've planned to stay away from these forums altogether because they are so frustrating and futile (but curiosity killed the cat, so here I am!).

I think what I meant by it is that some posters appear to have no concern at all for the potential consequences to Israel of a ceasefire. The word "genocide" is waved around a lot as though it only applies in one direction.

But yes, I've been a wanker 🤦‍♀️

ChickyBricky · 22/05/2024 11:13

Just to add, I think I'm probably more vehement about it all because I'm not Jewish and the gaslighting, minimising and cruelty I've seen on these threads really winds me up.

It's very difficult not to get into arguments because even when I try to express things clearly, some posters seem to wilfully misinterpret them.

With such deeply emotive issues, it is hard not to dig around in someone's post for the little kernel of delusion that would explain why they inexplicably take a view I find repellent. What prompts me to post is the illusion that if I can just... explain things more clearly, the scales will finally drop from their eyes.

I do realise this works both ways!! 😁 and that this is complete madness. As far as I can tell, no one ever persuaded anyone of anything useful on social media. Yet here we are...!

Limesodaagain · 22/05/2024 11:17

Honesty, humour and humility go a long way and are a lot more persuasive 😁
(edited to add - I’ve made a lot of mistakes too )

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